Re: Gas Solution: Reasonable?

Larry G wrote:
On Jun 23, 7:26 pm, Rich Piehl
<rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Larry G wrote:
On Jun 23, 9:11 am, John Lansford <jlnsf...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Larry G <gross.la...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
what I try to point out with "options" mostly is this:
this is not an either/or proposition without options. It is the
opposite.
Well, you're the one going off about raising the price of gas to
$8/gallon and building a European style transit system. Other than
that I've seen no other "options" from you.
there are lots of options but maintaining the status-quo is probably
not one of them for many of us.
"Probably not"? I'd say definitely not.
We are not likely going to change the price, and, in fact, even worse
may be yet to come... drilling for new oil is a scam... a mirage... an
effort to find someone or somebody to blame for the current situation
instead of ... taking responsibility for it.
We ARE a country with a much larger land footprint than many countries
but it does not follow that because of that - that we have no choice
but to travel great distances as individuals in our daily home to/from
work lives.
People already live in their homes, Larry; how do you propose moving
them to where transit is viable? For example, my sister lives just
outside a small town in TN with a population of 6000. She commutes 30
miles to a medium sized city where her job is located. The house she
lives in is paid for; what are her options? Carpool? Vanpool? Buy a
new car? Move closer to her work?
Russia and China have large land footprints but - people - as
individuals - do not travel great distances for the daily home-to-work
commutes.
Why are you trying to compare the US to dissemilar countries, Larry?
Russia developed the European portion; that's where the huge bulk of
their population is located. China is a third world country with a
highly developed urban region; neither country has similar
demographics to what the US has. In fact, for all practical purposes,
most of Russia is a third world nation, with no electricity, no modern
roads, no infrastructure, and little villages that still function from
100 years ago.
That's an excuse. We don't have to be Europe but we can accomplish
what Europe has with strategies that suit us but still result in less
fuel consumption.
Such as, what? Paying for a rail boondoggle with $8/gallon gas?
We are - responsible - for the problems that we have. No one else is.
No the person who did not drill. Not the Europeans. Not the oil
sheiks. Not the people who stopped new refineries... but us...
We can take direct responsibility for it and do something about it or
we can continue to make excuses and whine.
Which is why I've been throwing out ideas, along with several others
here and elsewhere.
Don't ya'll think it's a bit amusing? We are the richest country in
the world ...with a long list of things where we are better off than
the rest of the world and one of those things that are also better
than the rest of the world - is whining about our "problems".
No, I don't find it amusing one bit. I don't see anyone around here
whining but you, either.
John Lansford, PE
--
John's Shop of Woodhttp://wood.jlansford.net/
they're called van pools folks... they don't need tracks... they don't
require you to move.. they save gas and yes.. they are a pain in the
arse...
FWIW, I'm NOT in favor of $8 gas (but it IS inevitable stop dreaming)
and I don not think we are Europe or should be Europe but we can do
better than we are right now with our own unique American approach to
problem-solving.
I don't think we ought to be using other countries as guides but to
point out that other countries have it much harder than we do ... and
somehow they have managed to come up with strategies that work and DO
NOT .. as Richard put it "tank" their economies.
We need to take personal and national responsibility for this problem
instead of looking to blame others and attack the messengers who are
telling us to take responsibilities for ourselves.
We sound like a kid throwing a tantrum because he can't get his way.
And we continue to point out that other countries are very different
than the US.

Who was that brought up Sweden as a comparison
Sweden has a pop density of 20/sq km over the whole country.
Kansas, #40 on the state population list has a density of 12.7/ sq km.

That is very significant.

I don't think it has much to do with it at all.

Basically people in Sweden and Europe do NOT live 30,40,50 miles from
where they work unless they use public transit.

and .... they don't move to rural places where there is not transit
because it is more "affordable" and then drive solo to work -30, 40,50
miles because gasoline is $8 a gallon.


That's right. they don't. WE DO!!!! Are you advocating abandoning the Great Plains and mountain west to make it fit the model of your plan?


.. If gasoline were $8 a gallon here... it might take a couple of
years but most folks would start choosing where to live and work on
the same basis that Europeans do.

Here ya' go again - you claim you don't advocate living like the Europeans but in every post you said we should live like Europe.



Rural places that have carpools, vanpools, commuter buses.. people
would use them and new people looking to move further out from work ..
would look around and include in their decisions - how far and how
expensive it would be to commute solo every day.

Hub and spoke to every town around? Not practical. When was the last time you actually spent a good deal of time in a rural area. I mean a REAL rural area more than 300 miles from megalopolis? And when I say 'spent some time" I don't mean traveling through and spending a night. I mean actually finding out how people live and work and get to shopping and their jobs.



Most young people LIKE living in dense urban places anyhow... they're
tolerant of tight living conditions and like the availability of many
different venues.

Nice of you to decide that for them. Define dense urban places - Manhattan? Suburbia? Somewhere in between. I'd bet there's as many different opinions on that as there are young people.


When we get right down to it - in this country - what drives people
towards longer distance commuting is the desire to get married.. have
a house with good schools and then have kids.

Nice of you to decide that, too. There's -a lot- more to it than that. It's not wanting to be on top of your neighbors. It's not wanting to have non-stop concrete out your doors. It's wanting to see birds other than pigeon and crows and wildlife besides squirrels and rats.


People in other countries also seek the same things... but the main
difference is that they know when they move further "out" that solo
commuting will be so expensive that it's not an option so they look
for places that are near to multi-person vehicles.. whatever shape or
form they are in ....


What's changed in this country is that because gasoline was cheap -
(usually) married folks would "drive til they qualified" (for a
mortgage) ... never really thinking that the cost of gasoline per
month could start to look like their mortgage payments.

Here we go comparing us to other countries again, even though you said you don't want to be like them.

And as I just pointed out there are LOTS of factors! But you keep oversimplifying and ignoring the others.


And here's a real irony. Houses in the suburbs - at least up around
the DC area have plummeted in value. If you want to pick up a nice
house for a 100K less than a year ago... now is the time... just make
sure you are in a carpool or commuter bus... because in the DC area,
in addition to probable $5 gas, in 2012, there will be HOT lanes
charging roughly a buck a mile during rush hour.

You really need to get out more. The rest of the country is VERY different than DC. Go to small town Illinois and you find towns where the people commute to the bigger cities because the factories were shut down in the small towns. Go to the small towns in Kansas and find that people sill run farms in addition to holding down a 40/week job so they can make ends meet. Go to small town North Dakota where they travel to one town for their appliances and another for their clothes and another for their groceries because that's the way the merchandisers set it up.


Add up the gasoline and the tolls and living 50 miles from your job -
and solo commuting could cost $50 -$100 per day... the only folks
doing this are the ones who make a $500-1000 per day probably.


You really need to learn about life outside the Beltway. I would have to drive for 250 miles before I'd find some place that even CHARGES a toll!!! And those commutes aren't as optional as you make them to be.

Take care,
Rich

God bless the USA


--
Pat Paulsen (1927-1997) for President - 2008

Even though he's dead it makes about much sense
to vote for him as it does for the choices
that we have who are living. At least he's not
going change his position on anything.
.

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