Re: A proposal to toll I-95 and I-85 in Virginia/North Carolina


John Lansford wrote:
> "Larry Gross" <gross.larry@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> >and let me give you a prime example - the way that EISs are handled -
> >
> Depends on if it is a Federally funded or state funded project. If
> the former, then it follows FHWA rules. If it is state funded, then
> the state rules apply.
>
> >Within that world - the design and location of a proposed road often
> >are at the core of controversy and yet in many cases - the DOT will limit
> >alternatives and, in effect, total control of the design without explanation or
> >justification in some cases.
>
> Since the Purpose and Need has to be approved by at least the FHWA
> before alternatives can be determined, you're going out on a limb
> here.
<snip>
What is happening, however, is
> the agencies are often refusing to sign the P&N, are insisting on
> adding more and more alternatives to the design process, or refusing
> to agree on a LEDPA.

there's a reason why in my view and it goes to the heart of what
the purpose of a project is in terms of need... which is strictly
in the eye of the beholder in some respects. Merely citing a
"need" especially one that is fairly generic in nature .. like
"reduce congestion" or "reduce travel time" is self-prophesizing.
Hell.. I can state a need for just about anything... but what does
that have to do with anything other than the fact that "purpose
& need" ... means something very special to a DOT guy and
almost nothing to the unsuspecting public... WHY is that?

You can cite a need to put a road across the Grand Canyon..
do all the paperwork, dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s and it
won't sound much different that quite a few EISes...

> A parkway is a nebulous definition. In NC such a description would
> mean a road designed to a fairly low speed (under 55mph) with few at
> grade intersections, but it would NOT be a freeway or interstate. The
> EIS should define what a "parkway" is and what kind of design is being
> studied.

right... and so a road ... designed to be able to divert I-95 traffic
is
stated to be a "parkway to be designed in an environmentally friendly
way".
.... which is.. an obvious lie designed to mislead the public....

do some folks get an "attitude" when they go through an EIS and
read stuff like this? You bet they do. This is one of them. Is
my memory of this "too long"? nope.. cuz they're still doing it.
>
> >You can follow the law - to the letter - but if your process is not
> >open
> >and transparent -
>
> Wow, I feel like I've stepped back into a timewarp. You sound like
> the Larry Gross from five or six years ago, when you threw out
> generalizations like the above left and right, even after many people
> attempted to inform you about where you were wrong. After so many
> years it appears you've not learned anything. Very disappointing.

the DOTs need an open and transparent process - for their own good -
for their own credibility - for their own continued existence.

This is way more than giving the public "opportunities" to participate
in a process
so obscure and byzantine that even DOT professionals ... their own
folks don't
understand it unless they have years worth of experience.

and in my mind, this is not something that the DOTs should ... TRY to
do ... it's a requirement.. and the arbiter of the DOTs success at this
is .. not the DOT .. but the public.. who will agree that the DOT has
sufficiently explained what they do and why and how and that a
citizen - if they choose - will have the knowledge necessary to
participate.
>
> >Each project is PRESUMED to be needed at i'ts inception
>
> Feasibility studies done before the EIS is begun typically indicate
> that it is a worthwhile project.

what is "worthwhile" ... compared to what? what is the criteria
for determining if a project is "worthwhile". Is it a standard process
that applies to all projects.. or just the particular one under study?

... and you've never done a study where at it's conclusion.. it was
determined that the project.. while "needed" did not meet minimum
threshold standards for cost effectiveness?

Is there a "threshold" set of criteria which must be met before a
proposal is advanced?

>
> >That's how we end up with not only enormous wish lists - and
> >esentially no rhyme or reason why some of them float to the top
> >and others delayed sometimes forever - even though their "need"
> >was "proved".
>
> I've never seen a road that, once built, didn't get used, Larry.

gee.. I could say that about transit John... but is it cost effective?

> >
> Oh well. Nice to know some things never change. After years of
> discussion and attempted education, Larry is still the same old
> bitching, whining, closed minded Internet troll he always was.

John.. that wasn't nice and I expected better from you.

I've actually been "educated" quite a bit but perhaps not
in the way that was intended - at least across the board. :-)

Road building (transportation) is enormously important.

I consider it to be the veins and artieries of the county but DOTs are
operating
like organizations did 100 years ago in my mind when the taxpaying
public was treated like mettlesome anoyances that got in the way
of "real" work.

part of it is the sheer ignorance of the public and having to explain
every simple thing to them.. a burden to the DOT folks who have
to deal with the public .. and it breeds a certain amount of comtempt
of the ignorant... I understand this.. I'm guilty of the same
ignorance
in many cases...

... but the more I look into this. the more I believe that it is indeed
the responsiblity of the DOTs to have ... a stated many times in
recent posts - an open and transparent process - AS PERCEIVED
by the public - not an arguable claim by the DOTs...

not everybody will learn or even care .. but at least the folks that do
... should have a legitimate opportunity to learn and understand.

I don't consider this the job of the engineer who labors mightly to
design a proper bridge .. nor the guy that keeps the roads clear
and in good shape ... but it is most assuredly the job of the
folks who have grand ideas of new roads.. and what they
look like and where to put them.

Do ordinary folks know what purpose and need is? Can they
participate?

and I've leave this with one final question.. put out an MTR post and
ask folks to name the top ten road projects in NC ranked by priority.

... and see what you get from.. folks who "know" roads...

i rest my case. :-)

.

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