Re: I-10 Bridge Damage Pics

"Larry Gross" <gross.larry@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>John said:
>
>
>
>>FYI - Great Britain - 840,000 square miles
>> New Orleans - 180 square miles
>
>Larry, my source for Great Britain's area says that country has 94,000
>square miles, not 840,000. According to FEMA, the area affected by
>Katrina is 90,000 square miles, a comparable size.
>
>you be correct.. I had a wrong number
>
>
>> I believe to characterize the issue as too big a geographic area ...
>>therefore ... rationalizing that there were too many
>>"priorities" is DEAD WRONG. The whole point of establishing priorities
>>is to understand and deal with the worst of the problems FIRST.
>
>
>So, the people in the little towns 20 miles inland from the coast are
>on their own for how long? A week? Two weeks? A month? Two months? I'm
>sure they'll be pleased to know how low on the totem pole they truly
>are.
>
>... okay... then by that logic... we should see a proportional number
>of
>refuges at the Astro Dome relative to their geographic areas - right?
>If not.. . why not? Why are the places beyond NO .... NOT going
>to the AstroDome?
>
1) They know better
2) They can't get there
3) They are in worse shape than in NO
4) They aren't in worse shape than in NO

>>It's a matter of triage. Hospitals do it all of the time. If emergency
>>rooms
>>delt with the sick and dying the same way our response to this disaster
>>was done ... people close to dying would
>>be placed in a queue with people sick but not dying - and they would
>>die.
>
>>This is where we failed. People NOT in New Orleans - while very
>>seriously impacted DID HAVE options to survive.
>
>
>
>What kind of options, Larry? If you're in a town barely larger than a
>crossroads, with no medical care available, no place to get supplies,
>and no gas, what are their options? Take what they need from their
>neighbors?
>
>they were/are bad off... but no where near as bad as those in NO....

Then I suggest you educate yourself about what has happened to
Gulfport, Biloxi and Slidell and then say there. Those three cities,
and many others, suffered 80-90% destruction of structures from
windand flood damage.

>
>> People IN New Orleans did not
>>for the most part - especially those unable to care for themselves and
>>those hold up in their houses with opportunist thugs roaming the
>>streets.
>
>
>Well, it seemed to me that there were plenty of grocery stores for
>them to get food from, as opposed to the small towns outside the
>attention of both the government and the media.
>
>John... the small towns were not cut off from other places....
>they are still mobile.... think of simple things in NO.. like
>how do you get your prescription refilled? how can you get
>to an ATM? etc

When there's only one store or gas station in a small town, and it is
destroyed, what is their option then?

>
>>> > The first effort was to get them to a place of safety, such as the
>>> > Superdome or Astrodome, a place with a solid roof, sewer facilities,
>>> > and easily monitored.
>
>>None of those would be present in a tent city.
>
>
>>But they were not safe at the superdome
>
>
>
>The hell they weren't. It didn't blow away, and it didn't flood.
>
>.... right...women were being raped... kids had to go to the bathroom
>where floors were covered with feces... etc....

Uhh, the "women were raped" story is an urban legend. All of NO has
no functioning sewer; people had to carry around plastic bags to put
their waste in.

>
>>.. and lacked basic things like
>>food/water/facilities
>
>
>They were told to bring food/water for 3-5 days.
>
>right.... and how? and were they supposed to bring
>bathrooms also?

There are no functioning bathrooms anywhere in NO once the pumps
failed.
>
>New Orleans doesn't have a functioning sewer once the pumps fail.
>
>right... so put 30k worth of people in a concentrated area without
>facilities....

Acceptable for a few days, which was the plan if the city had not
flooded. Remember, 'refuge of last resort' is just that. A secure
structure that would allow people to go home once the storm passed by.
It wasn't a hotel, it wasn't a base. It was a refuge.
>
>>.. just fixtures that
>>had no water and no ability to flush.
>
>
>No better than what they had at their home. No worse either.
>
>
>>If nothing else a 'tent city' would have had latrines if not
>>porta-potties and security ....
>
>
>Where does the 'tent city' go, Larry? How do you get 100,000 people
>(at a minimum) to it? If it's within the tropical storm wind area,
>those tents get flattened. You don't move 100,000 people anywhere
>overnight.
>
>Military Bases... about 20 within the region... and you set the tents
>after the hurricane passes with 24 hours and you get those folks
>OUT of New Orleans as fast a possible and into those newly erected
>tents.

No planning for that kind of evacuation, Larry. Bases were never
opened up for the citizens. No time to do it either. Mandatory
evacuation began with less than 24 hours before Katrina hit.

>
>>> > The second stage will be to get them into semi-permanent facilities
>>> > until they can go home, such as mobile homes or trailers.
>
>>wrong.... again... in my view. FIRST - you get them OUT and second
>>you get them to staging areas - tent cities/shelters... THEN ...
>>you do longer-term facilities.
>
>
>>Where we went wrong is we spent too much time thinking... about how
>>to get them .. semi-permanent facilities and not enough time thinking
>>about how to get them out of a living hell ..... again.. a matter of
>>priorities... in my view.
>
>
>
>The failure was in NO to not plan, even though they knew they needed a
>plan. Throwing something together at the last moment is a recipe for
>failure.
>
>Jeeze John... how did people finally get out? Did NO have the
>resources?

They did but they didn't use them. NO's own evacuation plan called for
using school buses, but they weren't used for some reason. Everyone
else were to just drive away on their own, to anywhere but NO.

>Did Louisiana have the resources? .. When they FINALLY got out.. who
>got them OUT? the military....

Right. Days after they sat there and waited.

>>many areas flooded and most roads blocked with debris; and as John
>>said,
>>"don't forget that many thousands of square miles of area
>
>>"OUTSIDE of the city is devastated just as New Orleans is".
>
>
>> right... and my mother is Brad PItts... come on... do you really
>>believe that... or want to believe that... or want others to believe
>>it?
>
>
>
>Larry, this hurricane was monstrous in size. NO wasn't even in the
>worst of the winds or floods. Mobile was flooded 10' deep and
>everything between NO and Mobile was destroyed. Towns with far less
>ability to cope with this devastation than NO no longer exist, and
>many have not seen the first National Guardsman or relief worker. Much
>of NO is still standing; many of these smaller towns have 80-90% of
>the structures destroyed.
>
>So yes, the areas around New Orleans are as bad as or worse than that
>city. Go do some looking on your own at Gulfport, Slidell, Biloxi, and
>other towns if you don't believe me.
>
>I don't need convincing... where we differ is in what options people
>had AFTER the destruction occurred.... people were TRAPPED in NO...

Actually, the hurricane did relatively little damage to New Orleans,
because it went to their east and the winds were not as strong.

>they had no options... All these other small towns.. people can leave

The roads are gone in places. Other locations they are blocked and
flooded. If your car is wrecked you aren't going anywhere either.

>and FEMA and company can get in and set up... this is not possible
>in NO...

Bullshit, as shown by today's TV. Plenty of help is arriving there.

> the only option is to get out .. and that option did not exist
>for most...by the time they realized the levees had failed...

Right. A day after Katrina had done relatively little damage. NO was
counting their lucky stars they had gotten away with little damage
until the levees broke.

>
>
>>do you really think sitting in a house on a flooded street with thugs
>>roaming the streets is the same as being in one of those areas
>>outside of New Orleans?
>
>
>No, I think that having a roof over your head and having a little food
>is better off than having your home blown to matchsticks and not
>having any food/water help at all.
>
>
>> ... and therefore... rendering aid/disaster relief is equivalent?
>
>
>The amount of help NO needs is greater than these other locations, but
>they need the same KIND of help as well. Ignoring them in favor of New
>Orleans is criminal in my opinion.
>
>People in NO with health problem are dying because they cannot get
>medical care.. this is different from those other areas... a simple
>ambulance ride gets them to help.

New Orleans had over a dozen hospitals where someone could get aid
from, even after Katrina. Gulfport's hospital was wrecked and they
had no other, at least until a detachment of doctors and nurses from
NC arrived to help out. Now think of smaller towns, some which
probably don't even have a clinic, and in the middle of the damage
path of Katrina.

>
>>There is absolutely no doubt that this was/is a disaster of immense
>>proportions not seen before in recent American experience
>
>
>No Larry, this is the WORST natural disaster by far that the US has
>ever experienced. There's no doubt about it.
>
>... not convinced yet... ... but tell me HOW it is worse... without
>using New Orleans itself as the example.. since you say it's no
>different than all those other towns...

Not convinced of WHAT?? Name me another disaster that was WORSE than
this one. Any category you want to name, I'll bet cold hard cash that
this one will be worse. Deaths, cost, area affected, buildings
destroyed, your choice. Go ahead and try.

John Lansford, PE
--
The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage:
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/
.

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