Re: I-10 Bridge Damage Pics

John said:



>FYI - Great Britain - 840,000 square miles
> New Orleans - 180 square miles

Larry, my source for Great Britain's area says that country has 94,000
square miles, not 840,000. According to FEMA, the area affected by
Katrina is 90,000 square miles, a comparable size.

you be correct.. I had a wrong number


> I believe to characterize the issue as too big a geographic area ...
>therefore ... rationalizing that there were too many
>"priorities" is DEAD WRONG. The whole point of establishing priorities
>is to understand and deal with the worst of the problems FIRST.


So, the people in the little towns 20 miles inland from the coast are
on their own for how long? A week? Two weeks? A month? Two months? I'm
sure they'll be pleased to know how low on the totem pole they truly
are.

.... okay... then by that logic... we should see a proportional number
of
refuges at the Astro Dome relative to their geographic areas - right?
If not.. . why not? Why are the places beyond NO .... NOT going
to the AstroDome?


>It's a matter of triage. Hospitals do it all of the time. If emergency
>rooms
>delt with the sick and dying the same way our response to this disaster
>was done ... people close to dying would
>be placed in a queue with people sick but not dying - and they would
>die.

>This is where we failed. People NOT in New Orleans - while very
>seriously impacted DID HAVE options to survive.



What kind of options, Larry? If you're in a town barely larger than a
crossroads, with no medical care available, no place to get supplies,
and no gas, what are their options? Take what they need from their
neighbors?

they were/are bad off... but no where near as bad as those in NO....


> People IN New Orleans did not
>for the most part - especially those unable to care for themselves and
>those hold up in their houses with opportunist thugs roaming the
>streets.


Well, it seemed to me that there were plenty of grocery stores for
them to get food from, as opposed to the small towns outside the
attention of both the government and the media.

John... the small towns were not cut off from other places....
they are still mobile.... think of simple things in NO.. like
how do you get your prescription refilled? how can you get
to an ATM? etc


>> > The first effort was to get them to a place of safety, such as the
>> > Superdome or Astrodome, a place with a solid roof, sewer facilities,
>> > and easily monitored.

>None of those would be present in a tent city.


>But they were not safe at the superdome



The hell they weren't. It didn't blow away, and it didn't flood.

..... right...women were being raped... kids had to go to the bathroom
where floors were covered with feces... etc....


>.. and lacked basic things like
>food/water/facilities


They were told to bring food/water for 3-5 days.

right.... and how? and were they supposed to bring
bathrooms also?


> - they had no "functioning" sewer


New Orleans doesn't have a functioning sewer once the pumps fail.

right... so put 30k worth of people in a concentrated area without
facilities....


>.. just fixtures that
>had no water and no ability to flush.


No better than what they had at their home. No worse either.


>If nothing else a 'tent city' would have had latrines if not
>porta-potties and security ....


Where does the 'tent city' go, Larry? How do you get 100,000 people
(at a minimum) to it? If it's within the tropical storm wind area,
those tents get flattened. You don't move 100,000 people anywhere
overnight.

Military Bases... about 20 within the region... and you set the tents
after the hurricane passes with 24 hours and you get those folks
OUT of New Orleans as fast a possible and into those newly erected
tents.


>> > The second stage will be to get them into semi-permanent facilities
>> > until they can go home, such as mobile homes or trailers.

>wrong.... again... in my view. FIRST - you get them OUT and second
>you get them to staging areas - tent cities/shelters... THEN ...
>you do longer-term facilities.


>Where we went wrong is we spent too much time thinking... about how
>to get them .. semi-permanent facilities and not enough time thinking
>about how to get them out of a living hell ..... again.. a matter of
>priorities... in my view.



The failure was in NO to not plan, even though they knew they needed a
plan. Throwing something together at the last moment is a recipe for
failure.

Jeeze John... how did people finally get out? Did NO have the
resources?
Did Louisiana have the resources? .. When they FINALLY got out.. who
got them OUT? the military....

>many areas flooded and most roads blocked with debris; and as John
>said,
>"don't forget that many thousands of square miles of area

>"OUTSIDE of the city is devastated just as New Orleans is".


> right... and my mother is Brad PItts... come on... do you really
>believe that... or want to believe that... or want others to believe
>it?



Larry, this hurricane was monstrous in size. NO wasn't even in the
worst of the winds or floods. Mobile was flooded 10' deep and
everything between NO and Mobile was destroyed. Towns with far less
ability to cope with this devastation than NO no longer exist, and
many have not seen the first National Guardsman or relief worker. Much
of NO is still standing; many of these smaller towns have 80-90% of
the structures destroyed.

So yes, the areas around New Orleans are as bad as or worse than that
city. Go do some looking on your own at Gulfport, Slidell, Biloxi, and
other towns if you don't believe me.

I don't need convincing... where we differ is in what options people
had
AFTER the destruction occurred.... people were TRAPPED in NO...
they had no options... All these other small towns.. people can leave
and FEMA and company can get in and set up... this is not possible
in NO... the only option is to get out .. and that option did not exist
for most...by the time they realized the levees had failed...



>do you really think sitting in a house on a flooded street with thugs
>roaming the streets is the same as being in one of those areas
>outside of New Orleans?


No, I think that having a roof over your head and having a little food
is better off than having your home blown to matchsticks and not
having any food/water help at all.


> ... and therefore... rendering aid/disaster relief is equivalent?


The amount of help NO needs is greater than these other locations, but
they need the same KIND of help as well. Ignoring them in favor of New
Orleans is criminal in my opinion.

People in NO with health problem are dying because they cannot get
medical care.. this is different from those other areas... a simple
ambulance ride gets them to help.


>There is absolutely no doubt that this was/is a disaster of immense
>proportions not seen before in recent American experience


No Larry, this is the WORST natural disaster by far that the US has
ever experienced. There's no doubt about it.

.... not convinced yet... ... but tell me HOW it is worse... without
using New Orleans itself as the example.. since you say it's no
different than all those other towns...


> but this is NOT an adequate excuse for NOT establishing priorities and
>NOT performing triage to focus on the worst problems FIRST and
>then going from there....


The response needs to be larger than is currently taking place. It is
unconscionable that some American citizens must wait for days if not
weeks before help arrives, which would take place under your triage
analogy.


>FEMA .... "fanned out" ... instead of "focusing"....


Good for them. That's what they should have done.

Prioritize and focus - triage - getting help to those most in need
first...
then work down the list... How would you like to be rolled into the
emergency room bleeding from an artery and they told you to wait
until they got to a guy with a broken leg and a kid with mumps?

This is what you must do in ANY disaster.... and they did not do it.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: I-10 Bridge Damage Pics
    ... >Katrina is 90,000 square miles, a comparable size. ... the people in the little towns 20 miles inland from the coast are ... People NOT in New Orleans - while very ... >What kind of options, Larry? ...
    (misc.transport.road)
  • Re: I-10 Bridge Damage Pics
    ... Larry, my source for Great Britain's area says that country has 94,000 ... square miles, not 840,000. ... the people in the little towns 20 miles inland from the coast are ... People NOT in New Orleans - while very ...
    (misc.transport.road)
  • Re: To Berman
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  • Re: OT New Orleans: The City that Couldnt Afford to Die
    ... Build one or two New Towns near New Orleans, but above sea level. ... and build New New Orleans on top of the landfill. ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Re: OT New Orleans: The City that Couldnt Afford to Die
    ... Build one or two New Towns near New Orleans, ... Hurricane proof houses are not rocket science. ...
    (sci.space.policy)