Re: 26 USC 7701(c)



InquiringMindsWantToKnow wrote:
"nat" <esenter@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:46C67AAC.403@xxxxxxxxxxxx



Is your question philosophical because it doesn't appear
to be about 7701(c)?


1. Isn't this a fun game when you know exactly what my questions are about,
and I know exactly why your "beliefs" about 7701(c) are in error?

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Do you understand that 'includes only' is different than 'only
includes'? The former is limiting and the latter is expansive as when
used in 7701(c).


Set A includes only items 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Set B only includes items 1, 2, 3, and 4.

1. How is set A different from set B?

Are you asking a philosophical question or is the subject still 7701(c)?


I'm checking your implied assertion, to wit: {Do you understand that
'includes only' is different than 'only includes'?} for validity.

What I implied was that you are not smart enough to know the difference in my statement. Ok, let's test it.

Supposedly, the subject of this thread is still 7701(c).


Set A includes only items 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Set B only includes items 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Since you want to play dumb to avoid the issue, I'll simplify it even more.

2. Does set A contain item 1?
3. Does set B contain item 1?
4. Does set A contain item 2?
5. Does set B contain item 2?
6. Does set A contain item 3?
7. Does set B contain item 3?
8. Does set A contain item 4?
9. Does set B contain item 4?

Yes, to 2 thru 9.



10. Does set A contain any item not contained in set B?

No.

11. Does set B contain any item not contained in set A?

Yes.


12. Now answer the question, How is set A different from set B?

Set A is limited to items 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Set B includes items 1, 2, 3, and 4, and things otherwise within B are not excluded.
Therefore, set B is more expansive than set A.



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2. Or did I state {Term T includes object A, B, C.}?
This is in EXACTLY the same format as certain definitions of terms

given in

Title 26. The only thing missing is the actual objects denoted by

object

labels A, B, and C.

Ok, therefore your hypothetical ONLY INCLUDES A, B, and C. As used in
Title 26 and pursuant to 7701(c), nothing else is included.


7. Not even anything else that is {otherwise within the definition of

the

term defined}?

Things "otherwise within the meaning of the term defined" are NOT

EXCLUDED.

13. Are these your words: {Only those things following "includes" is
included.}?
(Search the post that this is in reply to, or scroll down to where you state
those words.)

Yes.


14. Are these your words: {Ok, therefore your hypothetical ONLY INCLUDES A,
B, and C. As used in Title 26 and pursuant to 7701(c), nothing else is
included.}

Yes.



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Do you understand that 7701(c) rules how "includes" is to be construed
in Title 26?


Yes.

15. Are the {7701(c) rules how "includes" is to be construed in Title 26}
the rules that determine what term T means when term T is defined in this
format: {For the purposes of this chapter, the term "T" includes A, B, or
C}?

No, 7701(c) rules how 'includes(ing)' is to be construed. 7701(c) has nothing to do with determining what any other term means.
'Includes(ing)' adds to the meaning of a term. It does not determine or change the meaning of the term.




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Moving on to the next level: Another made up statute STILL in exactly

the

same format:
{For the purposes of this chapter, the term "T" includes Edsel, Mustang,

or

Thunderbird}.

11. Now what is the meaning of T?

You tell me: T means _________________.


You have been given the definition EXACTLY as such definitions are given in
Title 26.

16. Are these your words: {Ok, therefore your hypothetical ONLY INCLUDES A,
B, and C. As used in Title 26 and pursuant to 7701(c), nothing else is
included.}

Yes.


17. Is it true then, By your words, T ONLY (your addition) INCLUDES Edsels,
Mustangs, or Thunderbirds?

It is your example...






Congress has given the meaning of T. Congress has stated {For the

purposes

of this chapter, the term "T" includes Edsel, Mustang, or Thunderbird}.

Nope.


18. Do you understand that I used the EXACT FORMAT as found in several Title
26 DEFINITIONS sections?

I understand it, but you seem to be having the problem.




TITLE 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE
Subtitle [redacted]
CHAPTER [redacted]

-HEAD-
Sec. [redacted]. Definitions

-STATUTE-
([redacted]) [redacted]
For purposes of this chapter, the term "T" includes includes Edsel,
Mustang, or Thunderbird.



If Congress had given MEANING to T, they would have said, "T
means thus and such..."


19. Are you now going to argue that the DEFINITION of a term is NOT the
MEANING of a term?

Ding, ding, that's what I have been arguing all along.



20. Are you now going to argue that the DEFINITION that Congress put in a
DEFINITION statute is NOT the meaning of the term Congress has defined?

Is 7701(c) still the subject of this thread, ding ding?



21. Are you now going to argue that when Congress words a DEFINITION statute
in this format: {For purposes of this chapter, the term "T" includes
includes Edsel, Mustang, or Thunderbird.}, Congress does NOT MEAN that term
"T" touches Edsels, Mustangs, or Thunderbirds?

You say, "touches". But you need to get into your head that when Congress uses "includes(ing)", Congress is not using "means". They are two different concepts.



22. Are these your words: {Ok, therefore your hypothetical ONLY INCLUDES A,
B, and C. As used in Title 26 and pursuant to 7701(c), nothing else is
included.}?

Yes.


23. When A = Edsel, B = Mustang, and C = Thunderbird, is this a proper
conversion of your words: {Ok, therefore your hypothetical ONLY INCLUDES
Edsel, Mustang, and Thunderbird. As used in Title 26 and pursuant to
7701(c), nothing else is included.}?

Yes.



For example, T = Car.


car n. 1. An automobile. 2. A vehicle, such as a streetcar, that runs on
rails: a railroad car. 3. A boxlike enclosure for passengers and freight on
a conveyance: an elevator car. 4. The part of a balloon or airship that
carries people and cargo. 5. Archaic. A chariot, carriage, or cart.


Car means all chevys.


24. Does car also mean all street cars that run on rails?

No, I said, "Car means all chevys."
I gave 'car' a meaning.


25. Does car also mean all elevator cabins?

No, I said, "Car means all chevys."
I gave 'car' a meaning.





For example, T = Car.
Car means all chevys.
For purposes of this
section, the term car includes Mustangs and Thunderbirds.

Now Congress has DEFINED "car" in that particular section as Chevys,
Mustangs, and Thuderbirds.


28 Are you using the dictionary definition of the meaning of Car when you
state: {T = Car} in your example?
(Yes, I know you are because of what you have said prior, so humor me and
nail it down with a specific answer to this specific question.)

No, I did not use the dictionary definition because I limited the meaning of 'car' to "all chevys".



29. Did Congress define car in this format: {For the purposes of this
section, the term car means the common dictionary meaning}?

Huh?


30. Did Congress define car in this format: {For the purposes of this
section, the term car means any passenger automobile}?

Huh?


31. Did Congress define car as all Chevys or did Daniel Webster?

Huh?



The following 8 questions assume you will answered question 28 with a "yes":

Then you would be wrong because I said NO.



32. When Congress acts upon "cars" in that particular section, does that
section act upon Novas?
33. When Congress acts upon "cars" in that particular section, does that
section act upon Camaros?
34. When Congress acts upon "cars" in that particular section, does that
section act upon Corvettes?

35. When Congress acts upon "cars" in that particular section, does that
section act upon Novas, Camaros, and Corvettes because they are within the
dictionary definition of "Car"?

36. When Congress acts upon "cars" in that particular section, does that
section act upon Edsels?
37. When Congress acts upon "cars" in that particular section, does that
section act upon Mustangs?
38. When Congress acts upon "cars" in that particular section, does that
section act upon Thunderbirds?

39. WHY WOULD CONGRESS NEED TO INCLUDE MUSTANGS AND THUNDERBIRDS IN A
SECTION IN THE MANNER OF YOUR EXAMPLE SINCE SUCH OBJECTS ARE ALREADY WITHIN
THE DICTIONARY DEFINITION?

Simple. Because I limited the meaning of the term. When things are included to that term, the meaning does not change. The included items are merely additions to the previously limited meaning.

If I had not given a meaning to the term, then the common dictionary meaning would be used. That is why Congress usually "includes" things to a term that normally would not be considered within the meaning of the term.

For instance, when Congress includes 'D.C.' to the meaning of 'state', the inclusion does not change the meaning of the term. 'State' still means state. And things otherwise within the meaning of 'state' are not excluded. That is, the 50 states are clearly within the meaning of 'state' and are therefore not excluded. However, 'D.C.' is not a state. So when Congress includes 'D.C.', 'D.C.' is merely added to the meaning of 'state'. It does not become or change the meaning of the term.

If T = car, and I do not say what car means, then all automobiles would be withing the meaning of 'car'.

So it would be ridiculous to say, "the term car includes mustangs, edsels, and thunderbirds." Those things are already known as cars.

More realistically, a statute would read, "the term car includes bicycles and golf carts."



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25. What is the criteria for inclusion (or non inclusion) of object D,

(or

E, or F) when the definition statute uses this format: {For purposes of

this

chapter, the term "T" includes A, B, or C}?

Only those things following "includes" is included.



26. What is the criteria for inclusion (or non inclusion) of object Ford
Taurus, (or Ford Crown Victoria , or Chevy Camaro ) when the definition
statute uses this format: {For purposes of this chapter, the term "T"
includes Edsel, Mustang, or Thunderbird}?

Asked and answered.


40. Are these your words: {Only those things following "includes" is
included.}?

duh.


41. Per your statement, is it true that since Edsel, Mustang, or Thunderbird
are {only those things following "includes"} then ONLY an Edsel, Mustang, or
Thunderbird, are included?

duh.



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9. What is the meaning of T when it is defined in this format {For the
purposes of this chapter, the term "T" includes A, B, or C}?

Sorry, but you have failed to provide enough information. However, if
"T" is in the dictionary, that would be its meaning.


I have provided you EXACTLY the same amount of information in the same
format as that provided in several definition sections of Title 26.

42. When a term is defined as a group of objects, wouldn't that grouping be
a statutory grouping?

gawd, another red herring, eh?



43. Isn't a statutory grouping of objects a statutorily defined Set or Class
of objects?

More gibberish.


class n. 1. A set, collection, group, or configuration containing members
regarded as having certain attributes or traits in common; a kind or
category. 2. A division based on quality, rank, or grade, as: a. A grade of
mail: a package sent third class. b. A quality of accommodation on public
transport: tourist class. 3.a. A social stratum whose members share certain
economic, social, or cultural characteristics: the lower-income classes.

class tr.v. classed, class·ing, class·es. To arrange, group, or rate
according to qualities or characteristics; assign to a class; classify.

set n. 1. A group of things of the same kind that belong together and are so
used: a chess set. 8. Mathematics. A collection of distinct elements having
specific common properties: a set of positive integers.

44. When T is defined in this format, {For the purposes of this chapter, the
term "T" includes A, B, or C}, isn't Congress defining a Set or Class of
objects?

No. Congress is defining a term.



45. When T is defined in this format, {For the purposes of this chapter, the
term "T" includes Edsel, Mustang, or Thunderbird}, isn't Congress defining a
Set or Class of objects that are all Ford automobiles?

No. When Congress uses 'includes(ing)", other things otherwise within the meaning of "T" is not excluded. "T" means whatever it means.








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Relevant Pages

  • Re: 26 USC 7701(c)
    ... To make inquiry; seek information. ... Things "otherwise within the meaning of the term defined" are NOT ... Congress has given the meaning of T. Congress has stated {For the ... rails: a railroad car. ...
    (misc.taxes)
  • Re: 26 USC 7701(c)
    ... > Congress has given the meaning of T. Congress has stated {For the ... Mustang, or Thunderbird. ... a conveyance: an elevator car. ... When Congress acts upon "cars" in that particular section, ...
    (misc.taxes)
  • Re: 26 USC 7701(c)
    ... Things "otherwise within the meaning of the term defined" are NOT ... Congress has given the meaning of T. Congress has stated {For the ... rails: a railroad car. ... When Congress acts upon "cars" in that particular section, ...
    (misc.taxes)
  • Re: 26 USC 7701(c)
    ... Congress has given the meaning of T. Congress has stated {For the ... Mustang, or Thunderbird. ... rails: a railroad car. ... When Congress acts upon "cars" in that particular section, ...
    (misc.taxes)
  • Re: 26 USC 7701(c)
    ... rails: a railroad car. ... I gave 'car' a meaning. ... Now Congress has DEFINED "car" in that particular section as Chevys, ... "T" includes includes Edsel, Mustang, or Thunderbird}, I am using exactly ...
    (misc.taxes)