Re: Glassification Targeting Information

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:38:55 GMT, zadoc <zadoc@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:02:21 -0500, LiRM <LiRM@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:42:58 GMT, zadoc <zadoc@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:24:48 -0500, LiRM <LiRM@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:35:16 GMT, Nick Hull <nhull@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <43c382c7$0$10672$afc38c87@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
>>>>> "Sheerluck" <sheerluck@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That would be a promising start , unfortunately there are at least two other
>>>>>> major targets in Iran (Bushehr and Arak ) , both similarly well dug in .
>>>>>> Looks like Iran needs to be introduced to the "Large Scale Outdoor Parking
>>>>>> Lot" option . (Multiple megaton strikes).
>>>>>> Seriously , given 1 . Sharon's current condition 2.Iran's intransigence over
>>>>>> the nuclear issue 3. Iran's declared hatred for even the existance of Israel
>>>>>> 4. Election coming up in Israel , then the Iranians may have painted
>>>>>> themselves into a corner , leaving Israel no option but a full-scale nuclear
>>>>>> strike . I doubt if the Israelis are going to sit around while the UN talks
>>>>>> about sanctions etc . A limited conventional strike would be both expensive
>>>>>> and probably ineffective .
>>>>>> We are in for an interesting next few months .
>>>>>> Sheerluck
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Do you have any doubt that if the Israelis used a nuclear first strike
>>>>>against a nation that had only used words as propaganda, that the next
>>>>>series of 'suicide bombers' to retaliate would use germ warfare? Would
>>>>>be most interesting if bird flu became people-to-people contagious.
>>>>
>>>>And what suicide bombers are capable of doing something that no nation
>>>>that I am aware of can do - that is - produce the exact genetic
>>>>manipulation that would give Avian Flu this capability?
>>>
>>>Dunno, how aware are you? :-)
>>>
>>>There hasn't been any human to human transmission of H5N1 yet or the
>>>pandemic would be off and running.
>>
>>This latest outbreak in Turkey involves an awful lot of people
>>compared to previous outbreaks. Hell, you could barely call the
>>previous cases outbreaks since they primarily have involved a few
>>people here - a few there. The numbers are up to 50 or so in Turkey
>>in this latest case based on what I've read. Quite a few people to be
>>coming down with the virus all at one time and in one place, isn't it.
>
>Turkey: Avian Influenza Situation - WHO Update 3
>------------------------------------------------
>Archive Number 20060110.0093
>Published Date 10-JAN-2006
>Subject PRO/AH/EDR> Avian influenza, human - Eurasia (14):
>Turkey
>Tests conducted in Turkish laboratories have confirmed the country's
>15th case of human infection with the H5N1 avian influenza virus. The
>patient is a 37-year-old woman with a history of exposure to diseased
>chickens. She resides in the central province of Sivas, the 7th
>province to report cases. Although no poultry outbreaks have been
>officially reported in this province, it is located near areas with
>confirmed outbreaks in birds.
>
>The situation in birds continues to evolve, with several new
>outbreaks under investigation in new parts of the country. All
>evidence to date indicates that patients have acquired their
>infections following close contact with diseased birds.
>MORE at
>http://www.promedmail.org/pls/promed/f?p=2400:1001:7054539806667507529::NO::F2400_P1001_BACK_PAGE,F2400_P1001_PUB_MAIL_ID:1000,31597
>
>Or link from:
>http://www.promedmail.org/pls/promed/f?p=2400:1000
>---------------------
>If go to main promed site also check out the outbreak of milder
>H5N2 strain in Japan in today's releases.

Thanks for the clarification. I stand corrected. My numbers were off
- I thought the number infected was 50 when it in fact was 15.

>>
>>>
>>>However, there is a lot of concern about a possible pandemic if a
>>>person is infected with one of the many varieties of human flu and is
>>>infected with bird flu at the same time.
>>
>>The "reassortment" scenario. One of the several ways it may make the
>>jump.
>>
>>>
>>>I would think it exceedingly obvious if this could happen accidentally
>>>it could also be arranged.
>>
>>I have to say I don't know exactly how easily that could be done, but
>>my gut feeling Little Johnny Jihad - sitting in his basement with his
>>Hasbro Recombinant DNA Fun Kit - would be able to whip up this
>>particular flavor.
>
>This is a possibility as well. Then too, it isn't even impossible
>that an expert in the field could be bought if offered him enough
>money. Scientists aren't superhuman. They can be just as greedy as
>any other human.

Man, I made all kinds of mistakes in this post. I meant "would *not*
be able to whip up instead of "would be able to whip up".

>--------
>>From October 4 to November 2, 2001, the first 10 confirmed cases of
>inhalational anthrax caused by intentional release of Bacillus
>anthracis were identified in the United States. Epidemiologic
>investigation indicated that the outbreak, in the District of
>Columbia, Florida, New Jersey, and New York, resulted from intentional
>delivery of B. anthracis spores through mailed letters or packages.
>MORE at:
>http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/418214
>----------------
>
>>From memory, the anthrax was determined to be from a US military
>research establishment. Have any arrests ever been made? If so, I
>must have missed the news.

None that I'm aware of either. They were after an American scientist
for a while, but it's been months since I've even heard mention of the
anthrax attacks. Your memory is correct - if mine is - in that it was
what is called the "Ames" strain - developed at the research lab by
the same name. From memory, though, it had remarkable non clumping
abilities - meaning it would be much easier for someone to contract
anthrax from it rather then an inferior "product".

>>
>>On the other hand - have you read "Demon in the Freezer"? It's by
>>Richard Preston and it's an exploration of the horrors of an
>>accidental or purposeful release of the smallpox virus into the world
>>in this day and age. If you haven't read it, I'd highly recommend it.
>
>Thanks for the info, will try to find a copy.
>
>>The point I make in mentioning it here is that in one of the last
>>chapters, he gets to "play" with one of the geneticists that work with
>>this kind of thing everyday. And being untrained with little or no
>>prior experience it isn't all that difficult to do.
>
>Worse yet, there are a lot of people trained to do it, and I don't
>doubt that some have been educated in the USA.
>
>I thought perhaps Abdul Qadeer Khan had trained in the USA, but turns
>out he hadn't. Still, the following info may be of interest.
>
>Consider the following info on sale of nuclear technology:
>-------------------
>PARDON IN PAKISTAN
>
>February 5, 2004
>
>Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf on Thursday pardoned Abdul Qadeer
>Khan, the father of the Pakistani atomic weapons program, who admitted
>providing nuclear weapons expertise and equipment to Iran, Libya and
>North Korea. Ray Suarez speaks with regional experts about possible
>reasons for Musharraf's decision.
>MORE at:
>http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/jan-june04/pakistannuclear_02-05.html
>
> --------------
>Last Updated: Thursday, 5 February, 2004, 17:00 GMT
>Foreign press denounce Pakistan scandal
>World press graphic
>
>Indian newspapers were quick to comment on the implications of the
>admission by Pakistan's Abdul Qadeer Khan that he had passed on
>nuclear secrets abroad.
>
>But the press in the countries listed by Mr Khan as receiving help -
>Iran, North Korea and Libya - have yet to comment on the issue.
>
>Early reaction elsewhere was mixed.
>MORE at
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/3462695.stm
>
>Last Updated: Friday, 20 February, 2004, 12:13 GMT
>
>Profile: Abdul Qadeer Khan
>Abdul Qadeer Khan
>Khan had an espionage conviction in the Netherlands quashed
>Abdul Qadeer Khan, who has confessed to transferring nuclear
>technology to Iran and Libya, is regarded as a national hero for
>helping Pakistan become a nuclear state.
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3343621.stm

Yeah, Khan gets a slap on the wrist - meanwhile he is probably
responsible for more nuclear technology being distributed to Arab
states then any one single person alive.

Isn't it great to have allies like the Pakistanis!!! (sic)

>>
>>>
>>>How much have you read about the possibility of an H5N1 pandemic?
>>
>>I've read what I can get my hands on - a few books, magazine articles,
>>the usual web sites, etc. It doesn't make me an expert by any means
>>at all, but I think I'm relatively knowledgeable.
>
>If interested in this and other developing diseases, it is worth
>keeping an eye on the Promed website.
>http://www.promedmail.org/pls/promed/f?p=2400:1000

I'll check it out - thanks for the link.

>>
>>>
>>>I might also mention that viruses have been created once their genetic
>>>sequence was known, and that it wasn't that long ago that scientists
>>>published the genetic sequence for the virus responsible for the
>>>1917-1919 flu pandemic that killed at least 25 million people
>>>worldwide, and possibly as many as 100 million.
>>>
>>>It didn't take long to spread around the world then, and a pandemic
>>>today would spread much faster due to increased travel and speed of
>>>transport.
>>
>>Indeed. There would be very little in the way of stopping it once the
>>virus has capability for human to human transmission. We would
>>probably be looking at weeks tops to circle the globe.
>
>Would agree with that. The 1918 epidemic spread pretty rapidly, but
>would spread a lot faster today.
>>
>
>The Forgotten Killer by Lindsay Redican
>
>In the ten months between September 1918 and June 1919, 675,000
>Americans died of influenza and pneumonia. When compared to the number
>of Americans killed in combat in World War I, World War II, Korea, and
>Vietnam combined- 423,000- it becomes apparent that the influenza
>epidemic of 1918-1919 was far more deadly than the war which it
>accompanied. (Crosby, 206-207) The United States and the rest of the
>world had been exposed to such epidemics in the past, but never at
>such a severe cost in human life.
>MORE at:
>http://www.haverford.edu/biology/edwards/disease/viral_essays/redicanvirus.htm
>>And think about how they eradicated smallpox - mass vaccinations and
>>then when it would pop up in usually 3rd world locations - circles
>>that would decrease in size until it had been stamped out in that
>>particular area.
>>
>>Here is my nightmare scenario: 20 jihadi's who have already
>>infiltrated the US population and are living quiet lives in quiet
>>neighborhoods. In their freezers, sit a small pencil sized vial
>>filled with frozen smallpox virus.
>>
>>They are simply living their life - waiting for some type of "go"
>>order. On that "zero" day, they take the vial out of the freezer and
>>allow it to come to room temp. And then simply prick themselves in
>>the arm with a needle that has been swabbed with the contents of the
>>vial.
>>
>>On zero day plus 11, they go traveling to 3 preplanned destinations
>>within the US. They are infectious now, but not symptomatic. Their
>>travels take them 2 days to complete. They have visited 60 plus
>>cities and infected a number of people along the way.
>>
>>They are now at zero day plus 13 or 14. Not only are they wildly
>>infectious, but also outwardly symptomatic. Their rashes - which may
>>have begun a couple of days ago - have turned into pustules. They are
>>in great pain and bordering on being delirious. But they have one
>>simple job left to do. They don on a suicide vest and head for the
>>closest mega-mall - at a prearranged time and date.
>>
>>They avoid people completely while they make this drive. They park.
>>They have one job left to do - make it the food court. They walk from
>>their cars to the busy lunch area.
>>
>>At zero day plus 15 at 1:00 PM, they detonate themselves in these food
>>courts.
>>
>>The explosions kill a dozen or two people instantly, but dozens and
>>dozens more are simply injured (and infected) by the shrapnel of the
>>vest. Little do they know it (nor do the first responders who arrive
>>shortly to take care of them), but they have become the second set of
>>vectors in the second wave of the attack. The first, of course, were
>>the airline travelers on board the jets the jihadi's infected in their
>>travels the two days before.
>>
>>In about two weeks the airline travelers will start to get sick.
>>Meanwhile, the hospitals and first responders in 20 major cities will
>>start to get sick about 3 days after the first. The "mall
>>detonations" just acted as subterfuge for the real attack - the
>>release of the smallpox virus.
>>
>>And so begins an attack that in 2 months or so - will leave the US in
>>a panic and with a wave of smallpox infections that cannot be
>>contained.
>>
>>Would the Islamists' attempt such an attack? Would they do so knowing
>>that along the way, a great many Muslims are going to die in the
>>process?
>>
>>Since they haven't minded killing mostly Muslims in their IED attacks
>>thus far in the mid east, my guess is they would consider their dead
>>"brothers and sisters" as simply collateral damage - to achieve the
>>greater good - that of destroying the US and Western society.
>>
>>Do I consider this a real possibility? I've thought about it a lot.
>>How would the US respond? How would the world respond? What would
>>the US do in reprisal for such an act? What would be left of the
>>world after such an attack? Could something like this be a "doomsday"
>>scenario if it turns out that bin Laden and company look like they
>>have lost the war on terror?
>>
>>I hope to hell we never have to find out. I hope that as insane as
>>the Islamicists are, that something like this is beyond what they
>>would attempt or consider moral.
>>
>>Maybe I have an overactive imagination and I give the terrorists much
>>more credit then they deserve for being able to pull something like
>>this off then they are capable of.
>
>Frightening scenario, but I don't think you have an overactive
>imagination.
>>
>>But *someone* pulled off those anthrax attacks and as much as our
>>government seems to think it was an inside job (meaning a domestic
>>American terrorist), I don't. To me, that was clearly an al-queda job
>>and it was designed to exactly coincide with the events of 9/11. And
>>is someone gave the terrorists anthrax, maybe they gave them some
>>vials of smallpox as well.
>
>>From memory all that was proved at the time is that the anthrax came
>from a US source. Who actually spread it and why is another
>question. As mentioned above, I don't know of any arrests yet.
>
>The fact that it was possible at all doesn't say much for lab
>security. Even if someone sold out, it shouldn't be possible for
>anyone to smuggle such material out. We do know that oil rich states
>have a lot of money available. We know that people have betrayed
>their country in the past for money, and that with enough money many
>people would be tempted. Can we afford to take the risk?
>
>Then too, there are sufficient reasons to assume that the USSR was
>doing a lot of biowarfare experiments. A general or a civilian
>technician might be even more willing to sell out given that the
>currency collapse has made his pension worthless.
>
>I'm disappointed that neither the US nor the USSR followed the UN
>request to destroy their smallpox virus years ago. After all, what
>was the point of keeping it?

>From my understanding, to do later research if it became necessary. I
don't believe for one minute that the US and former Soviet Union are
the only ones in possession of the virus. I just don't buy it.

>>
>>But I'm really starting to go off topic here, so meanwhile, back on
>>the farm....
>>
>>>
>>>There have been a number of human deaths from H5N1 flu so far, and the
>>>death rate is high even with anti-viral agents such as "Tamiflu". As
>>>it is a virus, antibiotics are useless, except to stave off or
>>>hopefully control subsequent bacterial infections.
>>
>>This I haven't heard about (Tamiflu increasing it's lethality). Do
>>you have a link or could you recommend a source for this information?
>
>I haven't heard anything about Tamiflu actually making the virus more
>lethal, just that it doesn't always help.
>>
>>I *have* read that Tamiflu may not be effective against the human to
>>human variant. Which is why I will put my money on Relenza being the
>>better choice of antiviral's to use.
>
>Perhaps. The important thing is that I doubt that any country will
>stock enough of either to really control a pandemic if it breaks out.
>
>Nor is making vaccines a quick process either. It would probably take
>months to produce a specific vaccine against a human to human variant.
>
>Personally, I doubt that an outbreak could be controlled without an
>immediate and strict quarantine on any city where cases appear.
>Whether governments could manage to do this quickly enough, or
>whether the citizens of a country would cooperate, might be the big
>issues.
>
>If interested in the group responses to the concept of quarantine an
>advanced Google search might be instructive. If don't want to fool
>with filling out the advanced search form, just Google:
>
>quarantine group:misc.survivalism
>
>When I did a date restricted search, got the following results:
>Results 1 - 30 of 330 from Jan 1, 1990 to Jan 12, 2006 for quarantine
>group:misc.survivalism (5.53 seconds)
>
>You might like to do this search and check out the more interesting
>replies. :-)
>
>If even a small percentage are indicative of the response of most
>Americans, I don't hold out much hope of them being effective.
>
>Again, reading the novel "The Stand" is recommended. In the novel,
>the military tries to contain an escaped supervirus...but is not
>successful.

One of my favorites. Always loved the book, but the movie made me
cringe (typical).

>
>If human to human transmission of an H5N1 variant becomes possible,
>the first cases would probably appear in cities with international
>airports, and there are a lot of these. Perhaps we could presume that
>the first cases would show up in cities with a lot of aircraft
>traffic.
>
>Say, for a start, New York, Chicago, and L.A.
>
>Would airlines and other people movers immediately suspend services?
>
They would have to.

>Would the residents of these cities be likely to obey a military
>quarantine, or would they attempt to flee?
>

Some would undoubtedly try to flee.


>Perhaps some readers of the current group might like to comment.
>
>It is worth thinking about, on the grounds that an H5N1 pandemic might
>make a lot of current survival preparations worthless.
>
>Which strategy would be best: Staying in the city and avoiding
>contact with others or attempting to flee? Probably the first, but I
>don't know that all will be convinced of this. :-)

My strategy is simple: hunker down with my wife and our moms. We
have laid in enough supplies to last until a vaccine would be
available (hopefully). Becoming a refugee - in other words - "bugging
out" - would be insane - without a clear destination - say a relative
or friends home way out in the country - said friend or family having
prepared accordingly. Choosing to "bug out" without a clear place to
go - IMO - would be worse then getting the flu itself. Then you
become a ward of the state. And it's not that I have some view of the
government taking people to "reeducation camps", but simply that they
won't know what to do with all of these people. Put them in FEMA
camps, where the virus can spread unabated?

Nope. Worst choice on the board. We close and lock the doors, lay in
for a while and hope for a quick vaccine or that through quarantine,
the bug can be brought under control. My guess is that it will. If
one looks at the 1918 bug, it flowered in places, was brought under
control - sprung up in others, but eventually it was brought under
control.

>
>The following site may be of interest:
>
>Ethics Challenges: Health, Safety and Accessibility
>in International Travel and Tourism.
>
>by: Linda K. Richter, and William L. Richter
>http://www.independentliving.org/docs1/richter.html
>
>I found your post very interesting, actually, and of a much higher
>standard than most which appear on misc.survivalism at present.
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>
>zadoc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thanks for taking the time to post good info, zadoc. It will take me
some time to go through it. I'm laid up with a fucked back right now,
so my "up" time is limited to about 3 hours per day. I'm up for 45
then down for an hour - up for an hour - then down for 3. Blows, but
that's what happens when one who has bad back injuries compounds them
by continuing risky physical behavior. I've wound up on the very
short end of a *** stick that includes 4 herniated disks, 2 that are
more or less completely destroyed, coupled with a nice topping of
spinal stenosis. The docs say "multiple disk replacements and
fusion". I say "*** that" - at least for now - and deal with the ups
and downs.

Talk "atcha" later me bucko. Take care of yourself.

LiRM
.