Re: Energy crisis threatens U.S. survival, Gore says

Dave Head wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:20:25 -0700, Joe <joea@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Dave Head wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:52:42 -0700, Joe <joea@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Funny, I remember the speech being longer than that.
His plan is to replace fossil fuel burning power plants with renewable sources.
And that's my point. Its so damn non-specific. What the H is he talking
about, "renewable sources?" Corn alcohol? Biodiesel? Algae? What?
It is a challenge to reach a goal more than a fully fleshed out plan.

And that's my problem with it. It needs flesh, or it's not a plan.

It wouldn't be so damn offensive if he weren't also trying to block the
acquisition of more petroleum for us to use until we _do_ have a plan. But he
/ they doesn't/don't want any drilling, or most anything else you can name, and
that will simply kill us, both economically, and in specific cases literally.

Speaking for myself, all available options should be included. Some places are better suited to hydro sources, some wind, some solar, some nuclear, etc.

Yes, any way you can make electricity is a good way.

Corn alcohol, biodiesel, algae etc. are only good fuels for ICE's not for grid power generation. Cars are a separate issue which Gore wasn't talking much about. You seem to think someone has to tackle all the problems at once, globally, and in fine detail to even begin to move forward.

Yes I do. Again, it is because they are talking about basically knocking the
props out from under the internal combustion engine transportation network, by
starving it of gasoline and diesel. They _want_ the price to go to $8 or $10 a
gallon so we'll give up our awful cars, but... they don't offer anything to
replace them with, and we still have to get to work and would really, really,
really like to get to see Batman after work.

I think we need to start with what we have now (conservation, planning, efficiency, etc.), set goals and limits (CAFE standards, ZEV minimums, carbon caps, power generator conversion), and be flexible enough to allow for the unforeseeable future.

I think we have to do everything we can to maintain what works now while
seeking to find a solution that makes things better. Allowing gas to go to $8
- $10 a gallon will simply enslave the entire population.

As he lays out, the first step is to modernize our electric grid. That needs to be done before we will know where/how many plants will be needed to replace the fossil fuel based power.
I wouldn't wait until all the wires are hung before starting construction on
the generating plants, whatever they are. THis stuff has to be done all at
once, so when the wires are ready, so are the power plants.
You don't need to wait until the wires are strung but you need a plan so you know what the grid will look like so you know how many power stations are going to be needed and where.

Where might be somewhat dependent, but not how much. That is determined by the
demand, which is quite predictable.

This is yet another "Don't do this" and is waaaaay short on what we should do.
Does he say, "Lets build 400 nuclear plants and shut down all the coal, gas,
and oil plants?" I didn't hear that.

I read his whole speech he gave just today, just now. He says plug-in electric
cars. Well, great, but the auto industry has been trying for decades to build
those, both here and in the orient, and guess what, they can't. Chevy has an
"almost" due in 2 years, the Chevy Volt, and it'll only go 40 miles on a charge
and will cost $40,000.
The part about electric cars was a minor part about capitalizing on the electric infrastructure he wants to build. The plan isn't about cars.
Well, it needs to be, don't you think? I mean, cars are what are consuming a
great portion of that imported oil. We have to solve the transportation
problem, dontcha know?
Sure, but I don't think one person has to have all the answers.

Normally, I wouldn't either, but if that one person is promoting things like
carbon caps, with no real alternative to them other than sitting home and
missing Batman because its too expensive to drive 20 miles to town (like I just
did), that is not OK with me.

Nor do I think we need all the answers to start moving in a new direction.

No, but we do need all the answers if the alterative you're proposing is to
wreck the present transportation system to make whatever replaces it, however
less capable it may be, to be acceptable since there's no alternative. That's
what this is all about. Drive my tinfoil electric car that weighs 1200 pounds,
has a range of 40 miles tops, and folds up like an accordian if it hits a
mushroom growing between the cracks.... or walk.

I read an interview with T. Boone Pickens today, who said he couldn't go
touring with Al as a team, because Al wants electric cars, and doesn't want his
natural gas powered cars. So, either Al is not paying enough attention to the
transportation sector, or he really is committed to electric cars, which just
aren't happening any time soon.
So? I think they should both keep moving ahead. I don't think their plans are at odds with each other. I'm sure Gore would love to have Pickens' wind farms on his renewable grid. And whether he likes the idea of CNG vehicles or not, nothing he said would prevent Pickens from developing them.

They're plans are at odds with each other when it comes to transportation.
Transportation will require a really serious support infrastructure. If you're
going to charge electric car batteries and keep cars that are competitive with
gasoline engines on the road, that is a whale of a lot of power for _each_
charging station. The charging station will have to be able to automatically
remove spent batteries from cars, install charged ones, and then have maybe, if
they're lucky, a few hours to charge the batteries before another car rolls in
needing those charged batteries. You'll see very high voltage lines running in
the vicinity of these charging stations. The load on the system will be
tremendous.

Now... if you mix in some ethanol burners, then you need to construct a whole
separate system to be moving ethanol around. Most efficiently, it would move
by pipeline, but from what I've read, you can't use a former oil line to move
ethanol. Not sure why. IOW, they have to lay some new pipes.

Now, if somebody decides that electric is the way to go, then we only have to
build the electrical wires. See how that cuts the overall cost? One whole
infrastructure doesn't need to be built. That's why cars in particular need
these decisions up front. Power grids don't care if PV or solar thermal or
wind or something else is the source, but multi-source energy for
transportation is a different thing altogether.
You read the whole speech but ignore all the parts about naysayers and pessimists. You certainly can hold the opinion that we won't rise to the challenge, and you are probably right since there are so many like minded people out there who can't be bothered to try even if they purport to agree with the goal.
To try, one has to have hope of success. But the politicians, so far, both
sides, have demonstrated gross incompetence to date in handling this problem.
T. Boone Pickens' approach is at least something that looks like it'll work as
far as it goes, but there are only so many smart billionaires to go around to
get stuff like this done. And, as I said before, he won't get it without help.
Getting said help from the current crop of politicians who are bent on
disagreeing with anyone from the other party just because they are from the
other party, will not likely produce said help in the timeframe needed.
So we should just stick our heads in the sand. Did you vote for Gore or Nader in 2000?

I voted for Bush because my vote turns on the 2nd Amendment, and those guys
would have been happy with collecting up all the guns (they'd get my deer rifle
220 grains at a time.)

Because they were the only candidates in recent history that would have pushed for these ideas from the executive. I can't imagine anyone worse than Bush for turning our energy policy around but I haven't heard anything from McCain besides campaign fluff like gas tax holidays, an unfundable X-prize and domestic drilling that is too expensive for private industry compared to foreign oil drilling.

Agree that gas tax holiday is BS. The X-prize might not be so bad if the
battery hadn't already been invented, but some smart guys out at Stanford U
have built a Li-Ion battery with 10X the capacity of a standard one. With a
little development (hopefully little) it should be able to give us electric
cars with 300 mile range and ICE beating performance. Hopefully.
That's the problem. No one has been working on it. Decades of cheap oil, a short sighted auto industry, and a head in the sand federal energy policy that de-funded the basic research that could hope to bear fruit in alternatives to fossil fuel, have put us thirty years behind.

Joe
Yep, they haven't been working on it long enough, anyway. They've worked on it
like hell for the last several years, but not the last several decades, like
they should have been. Still, they are up against a rock and a hard place,
because you just have to have better batteries, period, and they need smarter
people than they have in order to develop them. And that is a worldwide
problem, not just the US auto companies.
You're still waiting for the magic bullet and you seem unwilling to make any changes in the meantime.

Yep, when the changes they are driving at means I can't get to see Batman but
must stay home because traveling is so expensive. That's what they're up to -
that's "cap and trade" and it will ruin this country if it is instituted. Great
Depression I had Smoot-Hawley, and Great Depression II will have Cap-and-Trade.
Bank on it.

There are still many many ways to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels in industrial as well as personal applications.

Not a lot that work any time soon, tho, other than the aforementioned suffering
of not being able to travel except to work and back.

All your objections boil down to your own personal convenience. Any solution to a national crisis (and likely global as well) has a primary requirement is keeping exactly like they are now for you personally. Rather than take public transportation/carpool/wait a few days and combine the trip with another errand, you personally need to be able to see Batman on opening day without paying $6 instead of $8 for gas (on top of the $10 ticket, and $8 popcorn and drink)? I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one because I personally am willing to make changes to preserve some natural environment, healthy air and water, and sustainable consumption of resources. These are the quality of life issues for me and my children.

Joe
.

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