Re: Bill of Rights


"P and K" <news@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:hk5uk15ja3pq9pjov9fcobkj27i0j9mgvt@xxxxxxxxxx
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:08:36 -0400, "Hooda Gest" <Be@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"P and K" <news@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> >news:r1mrk11luufj92ritdi260e5d62hgpbv13@xxxxxxxxxx
> >> On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:17:52 -0400, "Hooda Gest" <Be@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> ><tomaldrich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> >> >news:434b5ec3$0$6481$9a6e19ea@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >>
> >> >> On 11-Oct-2005, cg <cgrams007@{removethis}yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > I also believe there should be a short amount of time reserved in
our
> >> >> > public schools for silent prayer during school hours but
> >participation
> >> >> > should not be mandatory. I also believe public schools should
make
> >> >> > provisions for those wishing to participate in prayer groups
> >> >> > regardless of the religion involved as long as those provisions
are
> >> >> > for a time period just before or after the hours school is in
> >session.
> >> >> > In a era of respecting cultural traditions I can't imagine how
this
> >> >> > wouldn't be acceptable unless you are some sort of religious or
> >> >> > anti-religious bigot.
> >> >>
> >> >> Do I need to list the times you can pray, it starts when you get
your
> >ass
> >> >> out of bed in the morning and the time it takes to get to school,
hell
> >you
> >> >> can even stop by your local church if you want on the way to school,
> >you
> >> >can
> >> >> stay up all night if you want to pray. You have all the time after
> >school
> >> >to
> >> >> pray until your little heart is content. I sure if enough parents
got
> >> >> together, you could even have get togethers at the church of your
> >choice
> >> >> after school or before school.
> >> >> Hell you can walk and pray between classes, or if pray to yourself
> >during
> >> >> class for all that matters, you can pray while taking a *** during
the
> >> >> school day, personally I don't care when you pray. But is your
religion
> >so
> >> >> weak that to fulfill your needs, we have to have a moment of silence
or
> >> >> whatever just to re-enforce your belief system.
> >> >> That my friend is one hell of a weak relationship you must have with
> >your
> >> >> all-mighty.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >I have a couple of questions for you...
> >> >
> >> >1. Was there organized prayer in school when you were going to school?
> >>
> >>
> >> In the public elementary schools I attended, we said the
> >> "plejaleejence" every morning, and said the "God is great, God is
> >> good, let us thank him for our food," at lunchtime, just like they did
> >> on Romper Room.
> >
> >Like Romper Room....Even in 5th grade? That must have been a hoot.
> >
>
> Yeah, man, because at home we did, "Come Lord Jesus, be our guest, let
> thy gifts to us be blessed." We did it right, and school did it the
> Romper Room way.


Hmmmm... the "right way" and the (implied) "wrong way"... dangerous ground
there...

Sounds a bit "My church is the only true church" to me...

> >> >2. How did it harm you or anyone you knew at the time?
> >> >
> >> >I am atheist so you'll have to explain the harm to me.
> >>
> >> We didn't wash our hands. That was not part of the lunchtime ritual.
> >> I didn't know anybody who was not a Christian in my elementary
> >> classes, so the biggest harm would have been in making a generic
> >> non-meaningful prayer acceptable.
> >
> >You mean like one's nighttime prayers? Now I lay me down to sleep...
> >
>
>
> yep, pretty much. We added, after the first "Amen" all the God
> blesses. We Godblessed our family one by one, then other people we
> wanted to mention, and then "everybody".

So, it was actually more than one prayer?

> >To an atheist, most prayer is fairly generic. Just as church services are
> >fairly generic rites repeated each week.
> >
>
>
> I find my inspiration in the music, which varies somewhat from service
> to service in most churches. The sermon or homily is usually the
> focus point and is generic to a fault with some preachers. My son
> used to call them the standard four: Get saved; save others; live a
> good life; give your money to the church.

You missed the "fire and brimstone" sermons.

>
> Many pastors still stick to those and never grow beyond them, so to
> many churchgoers, the services are fairly generic.
>
> I prefer a church where growth is taking place and the relationship
> with God is just that.... a relationship.

We all prefer those rituals, practices, and organizations with which we
agree.

> >I don't understand the "didn't wash our hands" part and how that relates
to
> >prayer. I have a hypothesis that not washing one's hands as a child
actually
> >helps you build immunities for later in life. Exposure to diseases as an
> >early age helps you in later life.
> >
>
> ----- they are both pre-lunch rituals, and the focus changed when it
> was out with prayer and in with handwashing. It's the transition from
> study time to eating time.

When I was in school (again, this is public school), there was only morning
prayer and no prayer at lunch. You were free to do so, of course, but there
was no organized prayer. That was due, no doubt to the logistics; classes
went to lunch at staggered times. That is, groups of classes went to lunch
at different times and there was a class coming in as one another was
leaving. If there had been organized prayer, it would have been almost
constant.

> >> There may have been non-Christians by culture or raising, or not....
> >> at that age kids assume others are like themselves unless told
> >> otherwise.
> >
> >And that's how kids learn there are differences before it becomes
ingrained
> >in them that being exactly like them is important.
> >
>
>
> I don't know what some parents thought about some things I taught in
> the social studies class, but I can imagine. I'm not as much a
> teacher as a facilitator, a thought provoker. Part of the curriculum
> discussed the birth of Buddha(?) as a full grown man from the side of
> his mother. The students laughed at how silly that was that anybody
> could believe such a thing. I said, "And they probably think it's
> really silly for Christians to think that a baby could be born without
> having a natural father."

Not the mainstream Buddhist view. Bhudda was born as all humans are born but
in a wealthy family. That's what I was taught anyway. I would have been much
less interested in that philosphy had I been taught such a myth of an "adult
birth."

Perhaps you should have researched it further before presenting that.

http://www.san.beck.org/EC9-Buddha.html

> >> I taught in a Catholic school for a year. My co-teacher taught the
> >> religion class, and the kids prayed for my enlightenment. I led the
> >> required prayers in the classroom (or rather, initiated them and
> >> allowed the students to take turns leading).
> >
> >Did you come to feel enlightened?
> >
>
>
> My faith was strengthened, but I did not convert to Catholicism, so in
> a true sense, yes; in their eyes, no.

Isn't that always the way? "My faith is the true faith."

> >> Prayer is a conversation WITH God, not a recital of a poem. I repeat:
> >> The biggest harm was in changing the definition of prayer to remove it
> >> from its intent and purpose.
> >
> >
> >Prayer is that, true, it is also a ritual done in groups for purposes of
> >instilling unity. Just as that Pledge of Allegiance was.
> >
>
>
> also for building a habit

Habitual thought is what facillitates conformity and cohesiveness. Like
minded individuals get along better than unlike minded ones. You are taking
prayer away from its true historical practice by making it solely private.

As you follow one thing Jesus preached on the mount (to maintain a private
relationship with God), you ignore the dictum to pray in one specific manner
using specific phrases. Not truly private if that is the "official" prayer.

> >I used to think of the Pledge as mindless repetition, conditioning young
> >minds to accept patriotism and induce loyalty to the state. Then I
studied
> >it more as I got older, added my experiences into the formula and began
to
> >view it differently.
>
>
> The "plejaleejence" was to me as a child mindless repetition, but as a
> soldier in the Army it brought tears to my eyes. I really believed we
> were a nation under God. Nixon was the president at the time.

As a child, it is mindless repetition. As you grow, you should constantly
re-evaluate those things you learned in that manner. Otherwise you are just
accepting that conditioning.

>
> Now the tears are for another reason.

Nixon should have been enough of a reason for tears.


--
Hooda Gest
"Respect is difficult to win, easy to lose."

.