Re: RSVP (and pinatas)

In article <692700F2tr7agU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Tai says...

Banty wrote:
In article <6904srF2vdu9qU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Tai says...

Banty wrote:
In article <68v9ouF2uqoi9U1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Tai says...

hschinske@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On May 12, 6:44?am, Chookie <ehreben...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:


Is it? ?I'd only ever ask for a phone no. if I expected to need
it in the near future. ?If some random parent waltzed up to me
and asked to swap numbers I'd think she was a bit odd. ?Is that
what you USians do? ?Obviously you are much more free with
personal information than we are: ?if a public school published
a student directory here the principal would probably be hung,
drawn and quartered!


That really surprises me. I'd have thought (though I don't know
precisely why) that folks in the US were much more likely to be
uptight about swapping addresses than those in Australia. Why is
it not done? Is it seen as unsafe somehow?

Not especially, and I'm rather surprised it is wherever Chookie is.

It's standard for the half-dozen or so schools I'm familiar with in
my Australian city for the parents to be asked in the first few
weeks of the new school year if they want their contact details to
be published in a class or year level list given out to all the
children. It's an opt-in system for privacy reasons and over 13
years or so at my children's primary school (for the1st 7 years)
it's been exceptional not to see an address and one or more phone
numbers given for a child. Now they are crammed with email
addresses, as well. Usually it's because the parent forgot to tick
the right box on the bumpf that came home with the child and then
they have to wait until the list is re-issued or phone the other
parents to give them the information.

The honour system of asking people not to distribute the lists
outside the school seems to work very well.

As far as you know!

Well, yes, I do know.

HOW would you KNOW?

Because it's a close-knit community and that's the way it works. I
understand that if you are used to schools where kids are bussed in en mass
and many of the parents don't go into the school at all very often when it's
open that it might be hard for you to picture the environment of diffenret
kinds of schools. You can take my word for it or not, though, it makes no
difference to me.

Oh get off your high horse about "close-knit community".

You CAN'T know because people aren't going to up and tell everyone about every
problem they have. Especially since issues of losing privacy would bring into
discussions private things. You're only going to know about the most widespread
(like emails sent to everyone) or the most egregious problems.

Newsflash: Your neighbors and fellow parents don't tell you everything.



There are obvious abuses that show up to
everyone like someone using an email list for right-wing "the evul
media doesn't tell the whole story on Iraq" stuff (actually happened
to one I was on a private mailing list that was for discussion of the
needs of those with a genetic disorder), or it can be an *individual
member* who was found using the information - you would see the
former, but you wouldn't know about the latter!



Once a system like that is set up, unfortunately, since a lot of
people *rely* on that for parties and the like, the situation
pressures people who otherwise aren't comfortable with it to sign
up.


No, our school community is fairly intimate so word of mouth and
invitations handed to the other children works very well as far as
parties are concerned. I've never needed to mail invitations to
other school friends at any age of the child and only needed to
hover in the background during the process for the 5 and 6 year
olds. In the lower grades most of the children have a parent there
at both drop off and pick up so it's easy enough to snag one to
arrange playdates or do an initial introduction when the child says
they have a new friend.


Then you really don't need it.

As I mentioned further down, the collective we need it for many reasons.

Other than the playdate and birthday party thing (but you say you all know each
other) - what are those reasons? Exactly.




I think they're generally a Bad Idea. We have it only for Scouts,
which is a much smaller, tighter-knit group of people with real and
continuting needs to coordinate closely.

Perhaps that is so in your child's school but it would be a mistake
to project your experience onto everyone else in the whole wide
world. Use your imagination, Banty, the worst doesn't always happen
you know!

Sure it doesn't always. But stuff does happen, and one really needs
to be careful about how much info you have out there floating around.
There at least has to be a *real need* for information to be
distributed.

Most people here have their names and addresses in the phone book, so the
information is freely available. I think you're catastrophising but maybe
your own personal experience has led your to be hypersensitive about this
issue. I don't understand why you can't accept that the opt-in method
protects those who don't want their details distributed amongst the other
parents.

I don't have a *personal* experience to catastophise about. READ, willya? I
much prefer to *prevent* issues.




Having a list out there
*only* for birthday parties and such (other communications should be
from the *school to the parent* and *the individual parent to the
school*) sent out to people I don't know just to make addressing
invites easier isn't great.

I don't know where your "only for birthday parties" came from, was
that something someone else mentioned? The lists in our school are
used for a wide range of parent-driven volunteer activities and I've
never struck anyone with your reluctance or concern about pressure.
In fact, when there is a delay in them being published - and
sometimes it can take a month or so - we all start looking for them.

Well, like what parent-driven volunteer activities. Just so that my
little Charles can go to the birthday party of his bestest buddy and
maybe I want to arrange a playdate, I have to get phone calls to join
ever committee anyone dreamed up??

Er... you doing that thing again where you make up a scenario and run with
it as if that's the natural result of whatever it is you are arguing
against. It's disengenuous and I won't get sucked into that kind of
unproductive discussion with you so you can either give it up when you
respond to me or face the fact you're wasting your keystrokes because I'll
let you wander off down those paths unaccompanied.

You brought up the volunteering. If it's not to call people about volunteer
projects, what IS it?


Having a little privacy and
distance from the volunteering *is* a legitimate need people have.
One reason why I dont like those directories. Have a newsletter!
Then *I* as a newsletter recipient can decide where I can contribute.
I don't want to be standing wet from the shower holding the phone
trying to beg out to someone saying "please please please it'd SO
much fun really..." If people are working on something together,
they can exchange the necessary info between themselves. (Now
*adults* haven't mastered that social skill??)

Actually, I'm usually the newsletter person ;-)

Newsletters are also good, they and contact lists aren't mutually exclusive
though and one does not replace the other. We also use class timetables for
parents to pencil in their names if they want to and notices sent home
asking for volunteers. All those methods are useful in their own ways and
can serve the differing ways parents like to help, depending on their
circumstances.

Great. Then what's the mass-produced set of personal info for?



Now, in some situations I might reluctantly put our information in
(but HOW, again, do you know who is reluctant - you only know who did
or not) and may pleasantly and politely deal with any of these other
volunteering calls (again, HOW do you know how I really feel - people
DO put on their best face usually, you know). But that still doesn't
mean it's a Good Thing. It just means people cope.


Look, if it's that important to you to keep a low-profile and be as
anonymous and uncontactable by the general hoi polloi of the school
community as that then of course you shouldn't have those details on a
published list. I doubt whether anyone would want you or anyone to feel
forced into it. That's why the opt-in or less desireable opt-out methods
work so well with school lists. You'd say no and then you wouldn't be
bothered by calls from anyone other than the school or people you'd already
given your number to for other reasons. Problem solved before it becomes
one.

But the existence of that list would make lazy people rely on it, and my kids
would lose opportunities.

And I think they're a bad idea in general. People opt into these things who
really don't like the idea of them.



I'm happy you are satisfied with having no directories in your
schools but I would miss them and my experience doesn't bear out
your concerns at all.

If you're someone who is enthusiastic about volunteering and
organizing parties, you might not be the type of person who feels the
need for privacy the way a lot of people do. And those people might
not be telling *you* of their concerns if you're really into the
volunteering stuff.

Not especially. I'm on the unsociable side of the middle when it comes to
parties and I'm more of a sometimes willing helper than a leading light in
the volunteer brigade. However, I make an effort for the sake of my children
where parties are concerned and I appreciate the fact that there are people
who _are_ prepared to put a lot more time and effort into volunteering for
things like fundraising, buildings and grounds maintenance, special-task
classroom helping, after school sports, drama, science club and... well, I'm
sure you really did know the answer to your question about "what
parent-driven volunteering?".

If a parent or teacher phones me to ask for help it wouldn't occur to me to
treat them like a noxious telemarketer, he or she is worthy of my respect
and it is to the benefit of my child and myself to respond accordingly.
However, even though I usually will help out if I can I also don't have the
slightest trouble in courteously saying any number of variations on "I'm
sorry, that won't be possible this time, but please don't hesitate to ask me
again next time". I certainly don't feel as if I've been badgered in such
circumstances and would suggest to anyone who did that they should get some
perspective, along with a some stiffening to their backbone.

Ah - so it IS about calling around to see who will do what. Telemarketers say
the same thing - "you can always say no." I ask you - what's wrong with having
people respond to a flyer or something, and working with those people??

You should develop some respect for those who don't want to have unsolicited
calls. This "it's on you to handle my intrusive calls" attitude is exactly
part of the reason I think these lists are a bad idea.

Again, if it's all such a close knit community as you claim, you don't even need
them.

Banty

.

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