Re: Sleep and older children

shinypenny wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

That, and I also believe in the responsible
exercise of passion ;-) DH may have a passion for WoW,
but he still has to exercise it responsibly in the
context of his family obligations ;-) So, a HS kid
with a passion should, in my opinion, be encouraged
and supported, but *also* expected to still make
reasonable contributions to the family. They can
and should be negotiated as appropriate to the
situation, but they must still exist. When I
see something like the kid who wants to be a professional
gymnast and her needs have turned the entire family
upside down to make that happen, I really feel a
lot of sadness at that situation. There often
isn't much that can be done. A passion that big
has a price, but it is a terrible, terrible price
for the family in many cases.

Yes, I would encourage balance. But I really can't say where that would
be - it all depends.

The gymnastics one is a good example: at an early age DD11 took
gymnastics and they felt she had olympic potential (just the right body
build; the right discipline; the right determination, etc, etc). They
wanted me to sign her up for daily gymnastics - I think she was 6 years
old?? I nixed that idea immediately!! No regrets, because while she
certainly enjoyed gymastics, a 6 year old just can't know what her
passion is, and understand how following it that early would affect the
rest of her life for years to come.

But, on the flip side, that pretty much nixed her
potential to be an Olympic gymnast, if indeed she had
it to begin with. I'm sure there are a number of
potential Olympic gymnast out there who never got the
chance because their parents wouldn't or couldn't support
such an ambition. But you can't live your live by the
"could haves." Obviously, there are parents who would
have signed up and been thrilled to do so. Personally,
though, I agree with you that it is a very high price
to pay.

It's sort of like going to the movies
with someone. It's not the most interactive experience
(unless you can count the time getting there, having
dinner before or after, or something like that). You're
just sitting next to each other watching the movie.
It's not like you're really interacting with each other.
Not that I've got anything against movies--they have
their time and place. I just don't think going out
to the movies is a real relationship builder ;-)

Well, yes and no. DH is very big into doing things together - he's
quite active and always finding fun things to do. This is what I'm
learning: those shared experiences make great fodder for the intimate
conversations later!! For example if we go to a movie, we can
deconstruct it for hours later... what did it mean to him, what did it
mean to me, etc. And then you always have those "this reminds me of the
time we... " memories.

Sure--I was just pointing out that the movie itself
isn't much of a bonding experience. It's what you make of
the surrounding events. Realistically, while it can inspire
ideas and conversations, you probably could have found nearly
endless other sources of input if you were somehow deprived
of movies. I am always a little astonished at people who
will be in town and want to have a brief visit and will
suggest maybe seeing a movie when we haven't seen each
other for ages! I'm thinking, helloooooooo...how about
we do something where we can actually talk to each other?! ;-)

I don't know about that. Sure, they were doing
something fun themselves, but *they* weren't getting any
family time either.

Well, you do always hear "your children will remember forever that you
were there on the sidelines cheering them on."

Only from those who really enjoyed the soccer--the
rest are lamenting all the wasted hours from being forced
to participate! ;-)

Motherly guilt, knowing
I was miserable and bored most of the time. And there were times when I
looked away for a minute, and missed their getting a goal... because I
don't understand the game so I wasn't following along enough to know
they might have a shot! They've forgiven me though. :-)

I never felt guilty for being miserable and bored.
I figured that is what it is, and what matters is that you're
there and giving it the old college try. And, if you try
hard enough, you can usually start to learn the game and
develop some interest. I figure it's better than *staying*
bored ;-)

I'm a little surprised at the
undercurrent to this discussion that kids only participate
in family time under duress, and would prefer to have
their own "stuff" and parents ought to catch *their*
"family time" as they can in the interstices.

I think it's more teens that do this, than kids. But, I don't see my
kids - even my teen - feeling under duress. At least not yet!

I *really* don't buy that it is inevitable that every
teen will get to the point that they can't stand to be with
family and will do everything they can to weasel out of
family events. I just know *far* too many teens who enjoy
being with their families (in balance with their other
activities). And really, you often find some very telling
patterns. It's not all that surprising that the families
where the teens are still involved tend to be families
where there's a priority on family life, where everyone
is celebrated for their individual talents and interests,
where everyone gets a say in the sorts of things the
family does, where curiosity and lifelong learning are
encouraged, and so forth. I'm not suggesting that there's
anything that will guarantee your teens will continue
to choose to spend time with family, but there are sure
a heck of a lot of things you can do to encourage it,
and a whole bunch of things you can do to kill off any
interest in spending time together.

I think there are two different issues here.
One is whether you want your "family time" to be deep,
intimate conversations and such or something more
active. I think that's a style issue.

Well, don't get me wrong, I don't think every conversation *has* to be
deep and intimate. I'm just saying that I enjoy conversation. I would
rather sit around on the sofa, making stupid jokes and giggling with my
kids, than fold laundry side by side together, or go on a family bike
hike.

I know--I understand what you meant. I'd prefer that
myself. But I have kids who would much prefer the family bike
ride, and sometimes situations where it's make hay with the
laundry folding or there's not time for much else. So, you
do what you have to do, and ideally learn to like it (or at
least appreciate it).

Some people
will bond in one way and some in another and some
families have to accommodate mixed styles. But
the key is that there is still *interaction*.

Yes. I think for me the key is that I want to see their faces. For
example, you can talk while folding laundry side by side, but then I
don't see their faces. That's why I really like sharing meals together,
because we are sitting face-to-face. In restaurants I deliberately sit
across from my children, instead of next to them, for just this reason.
Try it yourself - I've learned that the dynamic is just different. You
feel so much more connected.

(Incidentally, it's not just dinners with the kids; when the kids are
with their dad, DH and I make it a priority to always have dinner
together ourselves. And, we make sure we are sitting across from each
other - I do believe it makes a difference in the interaction, no
matter what you are saying or not saying.)

I think it does make a difference, but there are
also people (including one of my kids) who won't open up
while you're eyeballing him. He needs that bit of privacy
to be able to talk about the difficult stuff. So, you're
actually much more likely to get those important bits out
of him during a car ride and sitting across from him at
a restaurant.

Hey, I did say I was naturally a night owl, didn't
I? ;-) And I really do believe that the light from
computer screens (and tvs, but that's not really an
issue at our house) *does* reset your clock. When I
said I had to make compromises to accommodate the
kids' activities, one of the things is that I generally
do my work when they are away or sleeping. I can
usually get some time in during the toddler's nap
and while the boys are at school, but I usually have
a chunk left to do at night after they've gone to
bed. If I don't work on the computer, I can just
wind down and I'll be nice and sleep by 10 or 11pm
at the latest. If I work, between the stimulation
of the work and the screen light, I get that "second
wind" and then it can be harder to settle down.

Unfortunately, there was no Law & Order on last night, so I stayed on
the 'puter. :-)

We watch little t.v., but L&O is a nightly habit. I know what they say
about watching t.v. in your bed, but the t.v. has proven to be my best
sleep aid! I just turn it on, set the snooze function, and I'm nearly
always out like a light before the show is over. It somehow helps me
turn my brain off.

I occasionally get into that habit as well,
though then I always get mad at myself for falling
into the trap again ;-) For me, I have a hard time
slowing down my brain chatter, especially if I've
had a stressful day or have a lot of issues pending
the next day. Having some background noise helps
me tune out the worries and fall asleep. I think I'd
be better off if I just learned how to do that on my
own, though. I can't put on anything dramatic, though.
I always hunt for something like Nova or something
on the History channel or Charlie Rose or whatever.
If I watch a drama, then I just get worried about what's
going to happen in the show and stress out over that
and have to stay awake to see what happens!

Best wishes,
Ericka
.

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