Re: Question for religious parents

In article <1141319832.288957.169400@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
"cjorp@xxxxxxxxx" <cjorp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

dragonlady wrote:
In article <1141283734.566966.39970@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
"cjorp@xxxxxxxxx" <cjorp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Look, the only way that we assert anything about reality at all is by
ruling things out, by saying that they are wrong. The only way to
convey information about what the world is like is to assert there are
certain ways in which it is not.

Which is NOT the same as "jettisoning truth in the name of tolerance".

Of course not. That's the same as "thinking critically."

Saying that just because you think that a proposition is true doesn't
mean that you think the people who think a proposition is false are
wrong is the same as "endorsing a contradiction."

And in your mind, would that be wrong?

Um, yeah. *laughs*. I heartily endorse the principle of
non-contradiction. If you want to take a closer look at the truth
tables at that Wikipedia link you can see that embracing a
contradiction leads to being able to prove that *any* proposition is
both true *and* false in first-order predicate calculus, in which case
we can't actually prove anything, or claim anything about the world.
We can only make vaguely expressive comments.

This isn't math, though.

If I see two contradictory positions, I can embrace both while looking
for whatever Truth may come from their eventual resolution -- but, in
the meantime, I don't have to reject either one of them.

From this point of view, the opposite of Truth is not "falsehood", but,
possibly, another Truth.


Critical thinkers respond to contradiction by saying, hey, there's
something really wrong here -- I must have made an error by assuming a
premise or something. They don't say, oh, look, how non-judgemental
and Zen I'm being! I'd say that's jettisoning truth in the name of
tolerance. Furthermore, it doesn't buy you tolerance.

Actually, I think of it more as embracing paradox.

A contradiction is not a paradox. A paradox is a proposition like,
"This sentence is false."

Well, then, we'll have to disagree.

Actually, many writers in the field of faith development use "paradox"
to describe what I am talking about -- the ability or willingness to
hold contradictory positions. I don't think it's a bad thing or a
result of not thinking logically. Fowler, specifically, talks of the
increasing ability to embrace paradox as people's faith develops in
certain directions. He writes of it as a good thing -- not a necessary
thing, but not a bad thing, either. It isn't a result of not thinking
critically, but a result of an expanded notion of the possibilities.

Unfortunately, I don't have great language for this (nor does anyone
else I've read). It all ends up being in metaphor.

And, to repeat myself -- I am NOT talking about Jettisoning Truth, nor
have I any desire to be "tolerant" (I hate that word, frankly.) I will
gladly tell you if I think what you believe is clearly false. I will
also tell you if I think what you believe is dangerous -- a different
kind of false: a functional view of belief systems, perhaps. And I
will tell you what *I* believe -- but without insisting that that means
you have to be wrong about what *you* believe if you don't agree with me.

That doesn't mean I engage in sloppy thinking.

Please stop using "non-judgemental", at least with regard to MY
approach. I am not, nor do I desire to be, non-judgemental. I am
perfectly willing to judge, to discriminate, and to name specific things
as not-true (not possible, dangerous, unworthy -- take your pick). I am
not tolerant of specific beliefs that, imho, harm people or the world.

However, that does not mean that I believe mine is the One True Way and
that all other religions are wrong, or that I think any one way to thing
about divinity is the only truth.

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Question for religious parents
    ... Which is NOT the same as "jettisoning truth in the name of tolerance". ... Saying that just because you think that a proposition is true doesn't ... contradiction leads to being able to prove that *any* proposition is ...
    (misc.kids)
  • Re: Question for religious parents
    ... If you want to take a closer look at the truth ... contradiction leads to being able to prove that *any* proposition is ... it doesn't buy you tolerance. ... A contradiction is not a paradox. ...
    (misc.kids)
  • Re: Where is the paradox in liar?
    ... So why do we keep saying that every sentence is either true ... We have just proved by contradiction that this is not the ... I.e. a viable system of formal logic must have more than 2 truth ...
    (sci.logic)
  • Re: How much intelligence?
    ... Lester Zick wrote: ... Now, contradiction is another matter. ... If a proposition has a truth value of 0, ... Saying "blue not red" is just another way of saying it. ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Re: Where is the paradox in liar?
    ... Newberry wrote: ... So why do we keep saying that every sentence is either true ... We have just proved by contradiction that this is not the ... A complete set of truth values is: ...
    (sci.logic)