Re: Largest tax increase in history - no one read it


"John Galt" <kady101@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Draggonfodder wrote:
"John Galt" <kady101@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Lubow wrote:
On Jun 27, 12:37 am, John Galt <kady...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Lubow wrote:
On Jun 26, 10:08 pm, "Draggonfodder" <commoj...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Wow, cap and trade, the biggest tax increase in history and Congress
passes
it without reading. Seniors and the poor will be unable to pay for
the
increased cost of fuel and electricity
DraggonFodder
Here in the New York City region coal has been outlawed for
electricity and gasification for over thirty years and seniors and
everyone else seem to be surviving. In those thirty years the city
has actually improved its quality of life and crime has been
reduced.
The country consists of far more than the New York City region, which
is
fortunate to be able to rely on hydro, something not available to most
of the country. The majority of the country depends heavily on
coal-fired plants, and will continue to depend on it for the next half
century at least.


Hydro? Did someone say hydro? New York City is not in the northwest
nor is it in the Niagara Frontier.
I was under the opinion that some of Robert Moses project power was sent
downstate. If that's no longer the case, your information is more
uptodate that mine.
No more than 5% is generated from Quebec hydro. But that 5% gets
shared with New England. If you're talking about the PASNY Niagara
Project, that power is consumed upstate. It's just too expensive to
transport energy over 450 miles.

The 5% hydro entering New York City is about the same as DUK's region
in the Carolinas. Perhaps hydro would be more if Connecticut did not
put up such a stink about a high voltage line connecting Bridgeport
and Port Jefferson.

New York City had coal fired plants before the 1970s. There's an
abandoned short line railroad connecting the Con-Ed (now National
Grid) Staten Island power plant to CSX. Its sole purpose was to
deliver coal. New York survived very well -- and to the better --
with the coal plants converted to nat gas and oil.
Good for you, although I have no doubt that the cost of moving the coal
to NY factored into the decision, rather than environmental concerns.

But, the point remains. There is no financial motivation to move off of
coal until 2020 (the artificial date set by the ridiculous bill passed
last night), and although nat gas remains a fine future option for the
Gulf region, it will take longer to convert plants to nat gas than it
will to start up entire new drilling projects in the Gulf (which is one
of the good things about last night's bill -- in order to buy Gulf
region Democrat votes, Waxman had to agree to open the entire Gulf up
for drilling.)

JG


This cap and trade agreement will force coal out of business. It will
happen very quickly and no one will be able to resurect it after it is
done.

No, it won't. Here's what happened:

1) The enviros gave the Dems their marching orders on a cap and tax bill
some time ago. That's the bill that the House started with. That bill was
a starving, mean tiger that would have ripped the guts out of the economy.

2) Waxman was charged with getting the thing passed. In order to get it
passed, he had to tame the lion, feed the lion, and pull most of its teeth
out. The original bill envisioned an energy credit market where the coal
plants would immediately see their cost of business go up because they had
to buy carbon credits; but, to get the bill passed, he ended up giving
away almost all the credits to the coal power industry and backload the
targets until after 2020.

3) So, this bill is pretty much a "throw a bunch of shit against the wall
and see what sticks" bill. The family impact on this thing until 2020 is
about $150 a year. After 2020, it increases to two and three thousand
dollars a family. There's no chance in hell that that will ever happen.
Politicians don't have the cojones to tell their constituents to bend over
and take it. The Dems voted for it because the big hit of this thing
happens after they're all retired. The GOP and 45 Democrats who were
principled voted against, because they know that that's just a shitty
thing to do, because it screws up the economy by introducing additional
risk.

4) Now, the bill goes to the Senate, where farm state senators of both
parties have tons of power. They'll take this tame, fed, and mostly
toothless tiger and pull the rest of its teeth out, declaw it, and have it
performing in a circus. All that's left of this thing, between now and
2020, will be alternative fuel investment.

You think I'm wrong? Start reading the enviros blogs. They're already
pissed off because Waxman watered this thing down so much. So, read their
blogs, and remember that the more pissed off they are, the better for the
economy and the citizens.

Relying on future politicians to do the right thing is a real stretch.
If they won't do the right thing now, what makes you think they will do
it later.

Cowardice.

And once an industry is destroyed, it will be too late to bring it
back. Seniors will have to beg the government for handouts to help them
get through this. It is called a welfare state and the dems can't wait
to have you as their slaves.

Nothing's getting destroyed.

JG




OK, lets say I believe everything you say here. That's a real stretch since
I have seen how our politicians can screw up anything. My experience is
that if there is a worst case senerio, that is the one that will probably
happen. So, if I believe you, we have nothing to fear but fear itself.
Since I am afraid that the government will do the wrong thing, I will still
be living in fear, even if my fear is baseless. Why did they pass this
under the smoke screen of Micheal Jacksons death if they didn't expect it to
be really bad. Why do you think the Senate will do any better when they let
the tarp money go through without reading it. Since no one read it, how do
you know it was heavily watered down. Maybe they only think that it was
watered down. I have gone nuts thinking about how this is just so wrong for
our country and it has to kill the stock market that has already tanked my
401K. I am on social security and can't aford higher fuel and electricity
costs. You young bucks can outlive anything. They will suck me dry and be
glad I am gone. I just want to make enough in the stock market so I can
send my granddaughter to college. I think congress just killed that for me.

DraggonFodder


.

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