Re: "Investors 'shrug off' manufacturing weakness" - What a COMEDY!


"Balanced View" <Nill@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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John Galt wrote:
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FrediFizzx wrote:



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d. wrote:



"FrediFizzx" <fredifizzx@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:





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Uncle_vito wrote:




I think this market has almost priced in all this subprime
crap. The market is due for a rebound. Chicken Littles have
had their way too long and the economic statistics do not
support it. It is only FEAR and not FACTS that have held
this market back.

Vito







Consumers drive the market, and they are all up to their ears
in debt. That's a fact, and all you really need to know......





Bull***. You listen to too much of the news. I am not up in
debt and most any person who hasn't bought a house in the last
3 years is not in debt. Quit making generalizations to fit your
notions of justice. The market does not care if folks are
overextended on their credit cards or not. Neither should you.




You tell 'em like it is, Vito. We are not over-loaded with debt
either. Quite the contrary; we have many financial institutions
begging us to take on more debt every day. In fact, I would bet
that all of the sensible regulars that are invested in the stock
market here are not even close to being over-indebted. I was
reading a fact last week that about 50 percent of US homeowners
don't even have a mortgage on their primary residence. They own
their house free and clear. LOL! So it is all a bunch of BS
for sure.

Fred




Agreed. I don't owe a penny. And my primary bank has been
making all
kinds of offers of loans that I have no use for.




Then you are in the minority. Total U.S Consumer Credit Card
revolving credit debt alone was $937.5 billion
in November 2007, and savings rates are in negative territory, the
worst rate since 1933.



You are looking at the wrong stats. Americans aren't stupid; they
don't put their money in savings banks; they invest it in things
that will increase their wealth much more than a savings account.
We have more wealth and savings than ever. A trillion in credit
card debt may be a bit high but you didn't give the stats on how
much of that is paid off each month.



50% are making only the minimum payment, until 1980, total credit
market debt in America never exceeded 130%
of GDP. Now, it is more than 330%.



Are you of the opinion that people have no alternative but to use
debt to live?

JG



Whatever the reason, that's what they are doing. The use of credit
cards for grocery purchases is also increasing.


Kind of an irrelevant statistic, though. The real question is how many
people are using credit cards to long-term finance their food,

If the average American savings rate is negative, where else are they
going to get the money?


Savings and income are two different things, and looking at the situation
using national numbers ignores the possibility of statistical skew.




It doesn't matter how you parse it, people are living beyond their means.
I don't know how you can look at the
stats and nor see this.

Different question. Americans have been living beyond their means for
decades. Take a look at the horrid state of retirement savings. You don't
need the savings rate stat to see that.

JG





short of borrowing off Grandma, it would either have to be a line of
credit or a credit card.



anrd if that is indeed increasing (and I agree that if the use of
cards in grocery stores is increasing, it probably is), how much, and
(key point here) have the people simultaneously STOPPED using their
cards for vacations and flat screen TV's and GPS devices.


Or even more to the point, how many have lost their cards due to non
payment. Delinquencies are also
on the rise.....


Always a possibility, even among those with sufficient income, choosing
to pay Best Buy for the 60 inch flat screen rather than other bills.




It doesn't matter what they spend the money on, the point is they can't
buy more without borrowing more.




One would be reasonably concerned if people stopped buying luxuries and
started carrying card balances from grocery stores. One has little
sympathy, however, for those who may be continuing to buy the luxuries
WHILST carring card balances from grocery stores.


Either way it means they are tapped out financially , or soon will be/


Yes, they may have to tell their kids "no" when the want those brand new
$100 Nikes or the $150 Eli Manning jersey.


Again, it doesn't matter what they buy now, the damage is done. And when
all these people who are up
against a serious financial wall, they will stop spending across the board
for everything but necessities.
Stats indicate these people are not in the minority.


Back in the 90's, I taught 7th Grade in a low-income neighborhood. All
the kids qualifiied for the federal free lunch program. The kids all had
more expensive shoes, jerseys, and bling-bling than any of the teachers.

JG



And likely a lot of it was hot merchandise, or knock offs. Even if it was
purchased backs up my whole
argument, people are tapped out from living beyond their means....


.