Re: Homeopathy Vindicated, Lancet Placebo Study FLAWED AND REFUTED ?News...

"Citizen Jimserac" <Jimserac@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:5d555d1e-ce5e-43be-890e-7d51e8e285c9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


marcia wrote:
On Nov 21, 8:17 am, Citizen Jimserac <Jimse...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Nov 20, 11:32 am, Martin <idontwan...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:42:04 -0800 (PST), CitizenJimserac
>
> > <Jimse...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >On Nov 19, 1:59 pm, Martin <idontwan...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >> On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:43:03 -0800 (PST), CitizenJimserac
>
> > >> <Jimse...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > >> - snip -
>
> > >> >Without even breaking a sweat the placebo hypothesis can be > > >> >refuted
> > >> >with sheer common sense.
>
> > >> >Homeopathy would never ever work on babies or animals if it were > > >> >just
> > >> >placebo effect. It is used for both and has been for CENTURIES.
>
> > >> And that's were you are totally and utterly wrong.
> > >> Also, who decides that animals and babies actually feel/ are > > >> better?
>
> > Ah, an all caps attack.
>
> > >WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK DECIDES - YOU THINK
> > >A MOTHER DOES NOT KNOW WHEN HER CHILD IS WELL
> > >AND WHEN IT IS DOING BETTER, WHEN THE CHILD'S
> > >CRIES HAVE KEPT EVERYONE UP ALL NITE WITH CRIES
> > >FROM COLIC AND WHEN, 20 MINUTES OR LESS AFTER
> > >GIVING A HOMEOPATHIC REMEDY, THE CRIES
> > >AND DISCOMFORT "MAGICALLY " CEASE?
>
> > >YOU THINK AN EQUESTRIAN CAN'T TELL WHEN THEIR
> > >HORSE IS WELL AND OR NOT WELL, SAME FOR A DOG OWNER.
>
> > Did I say anything of the sort?
> > You don't think a homeopath deciding homeopathy worked or not is going
> > to be a tad biased when judging improvement in a person or animal that
> > can not speak for itself?
> > Oh, and concerning mothers etc - yes, they can judge the condition of
> > their child/ horse, but they can not judge what caused the
> > improvement. It's called anecdotal evidence and is basically
> > worthless.
>
> > >> That's were bias can creep in. That's where the research needs to > > >> be
> > >> blinded. And that's where time and again, homeopathy turns out to
> > >> 'work' when the research is unblinded, and does not 'work' when it > > >> is
> > >> done properly blinded.
>
> > >> >Also, if it were indeed placebo effect, ANY Homeopathic remedy,
> > >> >prescribed randomly would work.
>
> > >> Yes, you're correct. And that is exactly the case.
> > >> Here's something on the > > >> placebo-effect:http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=284
>
> > >Pardon me but the placebo effect is real, does exist and has lots of
> > >research - that's nice but is NOT the subject of this thread.
>
> > >Anti-Homeopathists come in various flavors:
> > >those that deny all effect,
> > >those that admit effect but claim post hoc ergo propter hoc
> > >those that admit effect but claim placebo.
>
> > Or all of those, or regression to the mean, a compliant patient who
> > wants to make the homeopath happy etc etc etc.
> > You still haven't read anything about how ineffective therapies can
> > appear to be working, have you now?
>
> > >> Check this part:
> > >> "a 1965 study from Johns Hopkins [Park et al., Archives of General
> > >> Psychiatry] in which patients were explicitly told that they were
> > >> going to receive a sugar pill (with no medicine in it at all) as
> > >> treatment for their neuroses. The researchers reported substantial
> > >> improvements in many of the study subjects? symptoms."
> > >> So placebo 'works', no matter what. Interesting huh?
>
> > >Yeah interesting, the placebo effect is real. So is Homeopathy.
>
> > >> >But reality indicates quite the
> > >> >opposite - that one of the Homeopathic physicians biggest
> > >> >problems is finding the exactly correct remedy to use -
>
> > >> No, that is when they keep on switching remedies until the problem
> > >> goes away on its own. And then they credit the last remedy they > > >> gave.
> > >> It's also interesting they never credit a previous remedy, that > > >> might
> > >> have worked slowly. Not all conditions are susceptible to a placebo
> > >> effect, mainly things that don't have much of a psychosomatic
> > >> component.
>
> > >NO, that is a consequence of Hahneman's theory - it ought to be hard
> > >to find the exact match and it is.
>
> > I'm sorry, but the similarity principle makes zero sense.
>
> > > Makes sense. BUT, once the correct
> > >match is found, result = cure. Just as you would expect from their
> > >theory. Makes sense to me. NOT placebo. Can't be.
>
> > "Can't be" - so Jim, tell me again about other people being closed
> > minded, but not you.
>
> > >> >the one that is the best match according to the similum theory
> > >> >of Hahenaman and that often proves difficult or tricky.
>
> > >> >Until that exact remedy is found and used the results
> > >> >are NIL, thus completely contradicting the possibility
> > >> >that it were placebo effect.
>
> > >> No, what counts is the enthousiasm of the practioner. If the
> > >> practioner is telegraphing to the patient that he isn't quite sure
> > >> this is the right remedy, it will not have much of an effect,
> > >> sometimes even a nocebo effect. This has been quite well tested.
>
> > >NOT a chance dude, their ARE double blinded randomized placebo
> > >controlled tests in which Homeopathy worked and worked well above > > >placebo level.
> > >There can be no doubt. Want some links or can you use google and > > >find
> > >them yourself and save me the trouble?
>
> > I know about those. Unlike you, I read them. You only parrot
> > pro-homeopathy sites. They're either so bad the conclusions are bogus,
> > or the effect is only just detectable. Something which you can expect
> > when you're comparing placebo with placebo.
>
> > >And... last but not least, the very subject of this thread involves
> > >a meta-analysis published in Lancet which has been used
> > >by people like you for the last four years to claim that Homeopathy > > >was no better than
> > >placebo.
>
> > Something which science already figured out over 200 years ago.
>
> > > Go check out those links I gave at the start of this
> > >thread, one of which points to a recent article in the JOURNAL OF > > >CLINICAL
> > >EPIDEMIOLOGY which analyzed and reconstructed
> > > that meta analysis and found its conclusions flawed and WORTHLESS.
> > >The author of the meta analysis has had NO RESPONSE.
>
> > >CitizenJimserac
>
> I'm sorry too old dude, you had no response to the successful
> utilization
> of Homeopathy for both babies and animals showing that it
> most certainly is not placebo.
>
> Leave it there and always remember that there is a branch
> hanging over you called "reality" which you can grab onto
> at any time to pull yourself up out of the quicksand.
>
> Citizen Jimserac

Your "proof" doesn't take into account that many infections and
diseases are self-limiting and will resolve or remit on their own. The
immune system is pretty competent at fighting off illness without the
help of homeopathy.

I've made no "proof" whatever of anything and
the immune system, until overwhelmed, is good at fighting off illness
-
you're correct!

But, Ya forgot ta mention RETROVIRUSES...

Try again Tootsie?

Citizen Jimserac





.

Relevant Pages

  • Homeopathy
    ... We tested, under independent conditions, the reproducibility of evidence from two previous trials that homoeopathy differs from placebo. ... Treatment of seasonal allergic rhinitis using homeopathic preparation of common allergens in the southwest region of the US: ... Studies using homeopathy have reported beneficial effects from treating allergy-related conditions. ... To examine whether the homeopathic medicine Arnica D30 has an effect on muscle soreness and cell damage after marathon running. ...
    (sci.med.dentistry)
  • Re: Homeopathy
    ... > from two previous trials that homoeopathy differs from placebo. ... Studies using homeopathy have reported beneficial effects from ... > of a homeopathic drug prepared from common allergens (tree, grass, weed ...
    (sci.med.dentistry)
  • Re: Homeopathy Vindicated, Lancet Placebo Study FLAWED AND REFUTED ?News...
    ... You don't think a homeopath deciding homeopathy worked or not is going ... those that admit effect but claim placebo. ... STILL doesn't link homeopathic treatment to cure because of the other ... Homeopathic medicine developed significant popularity in the ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Immunology And Homeopathy - Clinical Studies
    ... 37134 Verona, Italy, 2 Association for Integrative Medicine 'Giovanni ... The clinical studies on the effectiveness of homeopathy in respiratory ... controlled with placebo but the randomization was not specified. ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: Homeopathy Vindicated, Lancet Placebo Study FLAWED AND REFUTED ?News...
    ... who decides that animals and babies actually feel/ are better? ... GIVING A HOMEOPATHIC REMEDY, THE CRIES ... You don't think a homeopath deciding homeopathy worked or not is going ... those that admit effect but claim placebo. ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
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