Re: Homeopathy Vindicated, Lancet Placebo Study FLAWED AND REFUTED ?News...

On Nov 21, 9:12 pm, marcia <marcia1234...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Nov 21, 9:04 pm, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 21, 6:27 pm, marcia <marcia1234...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 21, 4:23 pm, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 21, 4:09 pm, marcia <marcia1234...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 21, 3:07 pm, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

marcia wrote:
On Nov 21, 8:17 am, CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Nov 20, 11:32 am, Martin <idontwan...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:42:04 -0800 (PST), CitizenJimserac

<Jimse...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Nov 19, 1:59 pm, Martin <idontwan...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:43:03 -0800 (PST), CitizenJimserac

<Jimse...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

- snip -

Without even breaking a sweat the placebo hypothesis can be refuted
with sheer common sense.

Homeopathy would never ever work on babies or animals if it were just
placebo effect.   It is used for both and has been for CENTURIES.

And that's were you are totally and utterly wrong.
Also, who decides that animals and babies actually feel/ are better?

Ah, an all caps attack.

WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK DECIDES - YOU THINK
A MOTHER DOES NOT KNOW WHEN HER CHILD IS WELL
AND WHEN IT IS DOING BETTER,  WHEN THE CHILD'S
CRIES HAVE KEPT EVERYONE UP ALL NITE WITH CRIES
FROM COLIC AND WHEN, 20 MINUTES OR LESS AFTER
GIVING A HOMEOPATHIC REMEDY, THE CRIES
AND DISCOMFORT "MAGICALLY " CEASE?

YOU THINK AN EQUESTRIAN CAN'T TELL WHEN THEIR
HORSE IS WELL AND OR NOT WELL, SAME FOR A DOG OWNER.

Did I say anything of the sort?
You don't think a homeopath deciding homeopathy worked or not is going
to be a tad biased when judging improvement in a person or animal that
can not speak for itself?
Oh, and concerning mothers etc - yes, they can judge the condition of
their child/ horse, but they can not judge what caused the
improvement. It's called anecdotal evidence and is basically
worthless.

That's were bias can creep in. That's where the research needs to be
blinded. And that's where time and again, homeopathy turns out to
'work' when the research is unblinded, and does not 'work' when it is
done properly blinded.

Also, if it were indeed placebo effect, ANY Homeopathic remedy,
prescribed randomly would work.

Yes, you're correct. And that is exactly the case.
Here's something on the placebo-effect:http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=284

Pardon me but the placebo effect is real, does exist and has lots of
research - that's nice but is NOT the subject of this thread.

Anti-Homeopathists come in various flavors:
those that deny all effect,
those that admit effect but claim post hoc ergo propter hoc
those that admit effect but claim placebo.

Or all of those, or regression to the mean, a compliant patient who
wants to make the homeopath happy etc etc etc.
You still haven't read anything about how ineffective therapies can
appear to be working, have you now?

Check this part:
"a 1965 study from Johns Hopkins [Park et al., Archives of General
Psychiatry] in which patients were explicitly told that they were
going to receive a sugar pill (with no medicine in it at all) as
treatment for their neuroses. The researchers reported substantial
improvements in many of the study subjects symptoms."
So placebo 'works', no matter what. Interesting huh?

Yeah interesting, the placebo effect is real.   So is Homeopathy.

But reality indicates quite the
opposite - that one of the Homeopathic physicians biggest
problems is finding the exactly correct remedy to use -

No, that is when they keep on switching remedies until the problem
goes away on its own. And then they credit the last remedy they gave.
It's also interesting they never credit a previous remedy, that might
have worked slowly. Not all conditions are susceptible to a placebo
effect, mainly things that don't have much of a psychosomatic
component.

NO, that is a consequence of Hahneman's theory - it ought to be hard
to find the exact match and it is.

I'm sorry, but the similarity principle makes zero sense.

Makes sense.  BUT, once the correct
match is found, result = cure.  Just as you would expect from their
theory.  Makes sense to me.   NOT placebo.  Can't be.

"Can't be" - so Jim, tell me again about other people being closed
minded, but not you.

the one that is the best match according to the similum theory
of Hahenaman and that often proves difficult or tricky.

Until that exact remedy is found and used the results
are NIL, thus completely contradicting the possibility
that it were placebo effect.

No, what counts is the enthousiasm of the practioner. If the
practioner is telegraphing to the patient that he isn't quite sure
this is the right remedy, it will not have much of an effect,
sometimes even a nocebo effect. This has been quite well tested.

NOT a chance dude, their ARE double blinded randomized placebo
controlled tests in which Homeopathy worked and worked well above placebo level.
There can be no doubt.  Want some links or can you use google and find
them yourself and save me the trouble?

I know about those. Unlike you, I read them. You only parrot
pro-homeopathy sites. They're either so bad the conclusions are bogus,
or the effect is only just detectable. Something which you can expect
when you're comparing placebo with placebo.

And... last but not least, the very subject of this thread involves
a meta-analysis published in Lancet which has been used
by people like you for the last four years to claim that Homeopathy was no better than
placebo.

Something which science already figured out over 200 years ago.

Go check out those links I gave at the start of this
thread, one of which points to a recent article in the JOURNAL OF CLINICAL
EPIDEMIOLOGY which analyzed and reconstructed
that meta analysis and found its conclusions flawed and WORTHLESS.
The author of the meta analysis has had NO RESPONSE.

CitizenJimserac

I'm sorry too old dude, you had no response to the successful
utilization
of Homeopathy for both babies and animals showing that it
most certainly is not placebo.

Leave it there and always remember that there is a branch
hanging over you called "reality" which you can grab onto
at any time to pull yourself up out of the quicksand.

CitizenJimserac

Your "proof" doesn't take into account that many infections and
diseases are self-limiting and will resolve or remit on their own. The
immune system is pretty competent at fighting off illness without the
help of homeopathy.

I've made no "proof" whatever of anything and

Fine. I agree that you can't ALWAYS claim recovery is due to the
placebo effect; however, REMOVING the placebo effect from the equation
STILL doesn't link homeopathic treatment to cure because of the other
factors I mentioned.

OTOH, claiming that the placebo effect doesn't ALWAYS apply is quite
different from saying it NEVER applies...

Correct again!   Your powers of reasoning work well!

the immune system, until overwhelmed, is good at fighting off illness
-
you're correct!

I know!

I know you know!!

But, Ya forgot ta mention RETROVIRUSES...

Where did YOU mention retroviruses?

Right in the previous post, remember?  -> "But, Ya forgot ta mention
RETROVIRUSES..."

So I forgot to mention retroviruses because you hadn't mentioned
retroviruses until you mentioned that I hadn't mentioned retroviruses..
Is that it?

Well... I know that you know and I know that you know that I know that
you know,
and you know that I know....

But... that is NOT it - I mentioned retroviruses cuz you said the
following:

"The immune system is pretty competent at fighting off illness without
the
 help of homeopathy."

which is true except for the exception of RETROVIRUSES in which case
it is not true because the defense  mechanisms of the immune system
get
HIJACKED BY THE RETROVIRUSES.

But, knowing that you did not know what I know or knowing that you
know that you know what I might not know in no way stops the knowing
of the known that we know ( do you like Noh? No?).

CitizenJimserac

Yeah, I know.

I do know the immune system can be "hijacked" by retroviruses and
autoimmune disorders, and can also be overwhelmed by pathogens of
various kinds, but I was only making a general statement; it wasn't
meant to be comprehensive and all-inclusive. To the best of my
knowledge, there are no valid homeopathic treatments that work for
retroviruses, either. You know?

No! And neither do you. The evidence is inconclusive
and MORE research is needed to make that determination
but more importantly... read on.

The theory of Homeopathy indicates
that their remedies are NOT targeted at specific
viruses or bacterium.

For example:
J Altern Complement Med. 2003 Feb;9(1):133-41.
Related Articles, Links

from:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=12676041

Controlled clinical trials evaluating the homeopathic treatment of
people with human immunodeficiency virus or acquired immune deficiency
syndrome.

Ullman D.

Homeopathic Educational Services, Berkeley, CA 94704, USA.
mail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"CONTEXT: Homeopathic medicine developed significant popularity in the
nineteenth century in the United States and Europe as a result of its
successes treating the infectious disease epidemics during that era.
Homeopathic medicine is a medical system that is specifically oriented
to using nanopharmacologic and ultramolecular doses of medicines to
strengthen a person's immune and defense system rather than directly
attacking the microbial agents. OBJECTIVES: To review the literature
referenced in MEDLINE and in nonindexed homeopathic journals for
placebo-controlled clinical trials using homeopathic medicines to
treat people with AIDS or who are human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)-
positive and to consider a different theoretical and methodological
approach to treating people with the viral infection. FINDINGS: A
total of five controlled clinical trials were identified. A double-
blinded, placebo-controlled study was conducted on 50 asymptomatic HIV-
positive subjects (stage II) and 50 subjects with persistent
generalized lymphadenopathy (stage III) in whom individualized single-
remedy homeopathic treatment was provided. A separate body of
preliminary research was conducted using homeopathic doses of growth
factors. Two randomized double-blinded, placebo-controlled studies
were conducted with a total of 77 people with AIDS who used only
natural therapies over a 8-16-week period. Two other studies were
conducted over a 2.5-year period with 27 subjects in an open-label
format. SETTINGS: The first study was conducted by the Regional
Research Institute for Homeopathy in Mumbai, India, under the Central
Council for Research in Homeopathy, with the approval of the Ministry
of Health and Family Welfare, Government of India. The second body of
studies was conducted in clinic settings in California, Oregon,
Arizona, Hawaii, New York, and Washington. RESULTS: The first study
found no statistically significant improvement in CD4 T-lymphocytes,
but did find statistically significant pretest and post-test results
in subjects with stage III AIDS, in CD4 (p = 0.008) and in CD8 (p =
0.04) counts. The second group of studies found specific physical,
immunologic, neurologic, metabolic, and quality-of-life benefits,
including improvements in lymphocyte counts and functions and
reductions in HIV viral loads. CONCLUSIONS: As a result of the growing
number of people with drug-resistant HIV infection taking structured
treatment interruptions, homeopathic medicine may play a useful role
as an adjunctive and/or alternative therapy."

quoted from:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=12676041

So WAY MORE research is needed before any kind of a definitive
conclusion can be reached.

No?

Citizen Jimserac
.

Relevant Pages

  • Homeopathy
    ... We tested, under independent conditions, the reproducibility of evidence from two previous trials that homoeopathy differs from placebo. ... Treatment of seasonal allergic rhinitis using homeopathic preparation of common allergens in the southwest region of the US: ... Studies using homeopathy have reported beneficial effects from treating allergy-related conditions. ... To examine whether the homeopathic medicine Arnica D30 has an effect on muscle soreness and cell damage after marathon running. ...
    (sci.med.dentistry)
  • Re: Homeopathy
    ... > from two previous trials that homoeopathy differs from placebo. ... Studies using homeopathy have reported beneficial effects from ... > of a homeopathic drug prepared from common allergens (tree, grass, weed ...
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  • Re: Homeopathy Vindicated, Lancet Placebo Study FLAWED AND REFUTED ?News...
    ... who decides that animals and babies actually feel/ are ... >>>those that admit effect but claim placebo. ... So is Homeopathy. ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Immunology And Homeopathy - Clinical Studies
    ... 37134 Verona, Italy, 2 Association for Integrative Medicine 'Giovanni ... The clinical studies on the effectiveness of homeopathy in respiratory ... controlled with placebo but the randomization was not specified. ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: Scary spam
    ... showing the efficacy of homeopathy, ... Effect of homeopathic treatment of 60 Japanese patients with chronic ... placebo) were excluded from the analyses because of incomplete data. ...
    (uk.misc)
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