Re: Acupuncture at UCLA

On Jul 31, 7:40 am, schu...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Richard Schultz) wrote:
In article <1185881029.555023.80...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
: On Jul 31, 5:38 am, schu...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Richard Schultz) wrote:

:> : These forms
:> : of Traditional Chinese Medicine practice are then combined with more
:> : conventional medical care in order to best serve the patient's needs.

:> In other words, conventional medicine + placebo = conventional medicine.
:> Or, to put it more optimistically, modern mechanized medicine + personal
:> attention to the patient yields better results than modern mechanized
:> medicine alone.

: Those are your words and they are based on nothing more than
: conjecture.

For someone who claims to be as big a fan of science as you do, you seem
to have this major blind spot about what does and does not constitute
experimental evidence supporting a claim, and why (and when) one applies
Occam's Razor.

No, I don't. What you do is conveniently ignore how difficult it is
to actually blind acupuncture experiements. What you suggested as a
way of double-blinding doesn't do anything for the people I've run it
by. Maybe you know of somebody who'd consider it viable, but I doubt
it. I've said it and you've said it. You won't accept anything
without blinding that meets your standards. I know that there isn't
anything that conforms to your proposed blinding beyond single blinded
(sham placebo needles) using the exact same points on each patient.

What that means, Richard, is that I know I can't prove this to YOUR
satisfaction any more than I prove to Tom Cruise's satisfaction that
Scientology is a waste of time. That doesn't mean that I don't want
the type of evidence you'd require. Heck, I'd like randomized, double-
blinded, placebo trials of 50,000 people each with 7 parallel groups
in different countries. Of course, I'd like a date with Scarlet
Johanson, too.

Your actual belief is that Acupuncture is nothing more than a placebo
until proven otherwise by tightly blinded, replicated studies. That's
quite different than being a skeptic. You're free to be arbitrary,
but your doubts may cause you or loved ones to postpone effective
treatment. "I wish I had done this sooner" is a pretty common
sentiment in my office. In light of the very low risk, low cost, &
small investment of time, its not such a leap of faith. After all,
with the NIH's blessing, Duke, Stanford, Miami University, UNC-Chapel
Hill, & UCLA are inviting you to experience the healing, TCM style!


The "acceptance" of acupuncture you cite is specifically
*in conjunction with conventional medical care*. Which means that you
have still to provide any evidence that anyone at UCLA actually thinks that
acupuncture by itself can do anything.

Yeah, they're doing it with licensed acupuncturists, charging a
pennace compared to mainstream procedures, they offer classes for
their medical students and graduates, but they don't actually think it
does anything by itself. That is perfectly logical and totally
implausible. They do it because they see it work. Homeopathy is a
much simpler, cheaper, & less invasive placebo. Ditto for therapuetic
touch (debunked as the bunk it is), reiki, healing hands, etc. Notice
the therapuetic touch has been disproven while the evidence for &
acceptance of acupuncture swells.


By the way, what experiment would you do to test for the existence of Qi?

You seem to be hung-up on the existence of Qi as a tangible thing.
Its an abstraction. It isn't some mysterious substance or energy.
The Qi of a particular meridian is a qualitative description of its
functioning.


-----
Richard Schultz schu...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Acupuncture at UCLA
    ... The conventional medicine has failed to ... are you stating that they were cured and the treatment was ... :> as such provides no evidence that acupuncture is being accepted as anything ... :> other than a placebo to make the patients think that they feel better. ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Book review: Trick or Treat? (Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst)
    ... Alternative medicine on trial ... of the unconventional treatments work except as a placebo. ... The book considers four therapies in detail (acupuncture, ...
    (rec.arts.books)
  • Re: Whats the harm?
    ... Only if it actually works -- something very much not in evidence. ... I assume that you mean that you would object to acupuncture for nausea ... not involve placebo control. ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: Neuroimaging of Acupuncture Points
    ... details of acupuncture have certainly been ... classics of Chinese medicine. ... in some places and amazingly modern ... It has the same range of activity as placebo ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: Acupuncture: Predictions for 2009
    ... acceptance within mainstream medicine. ... I'd say the evidence is OVERWHELMING that you are correct!! ... of sham acupuncture as true acupuncture so long as there is adequate ... placebo effects and other non-specific influences in medical interactions.. ...
    (misc.health.alternative)