Re: Acupuncture for Headaches

On Jul 29, 1:19 am, schu...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Richard Schultz) wrote:
In article <1185475875.722722.254...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, The One True Zhen Jue <Andrew_King...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

: Ok, now you're introducing relevance, as in "relevant to you". That's
: your trip, Richard, not mine. I've made the argument that 60% of the
: MD's in the USA accept the fact that acupuncture is at least somewhat
: effective.

Whenever I bring up the issue of efficacy, you claim that you are not arguing
the issue of efficacy, but that of acceptance. Now you say that "acceptance"
is equivalent to "accepting that it is somewhat effective." What is it
precisely that "acceptance" is supposed to mean, and why should "acceptance"
be of any particular significance?

: I also feel very comfortable that you wouldn't accept it in
: any circumstance.

I also feel very comfortable saying that you are lying when you say that.

Good. I feel even more comfortable saying that you are lying when you
say that I said acupuncture only works when performed by a licensed
acupuncturist. I can prove that I never said that. On the other
hand, you disregard the NIH consensus statement that Acupuncture IS
efficacious for a number of conditions. On top of that, you want a
brand new, 100% objective pain-scale to evaluate acupuncture. Do you
require such a scale for any other pain treatment? No, you don't.
You also stated that double-blinding should be done; that's pure
passive-aggression.

I doubt if you'd believe in lightning even if it struck you.



: Yes, it is the same healing you can get at Stanford, Miami,
: Duke, & UNC-Chapel Hill. Or, you can search pubmed yourself.

According to you, acupuncture only works when it is performed by a licensed
acupuncturist. The person who teaches acupuncture at Stanford does not
appear to be a licensed acupuncturist, so therefore, it strikes me as
unlikely that you can get that kind of healing at Stanford.

I never said that and I even addresed that in the previous post. I
said that it is unlikely that a person who took 100-200 hours of
training would know much other than where the points are. That's a
fact, Richard. There are ~450 points to learn; the 365 primary, about
50 "extra" points, and ~40 auricular points. If you think you can
learn how to find them, where they are, and how to use them in 200
hours, then maybe you've missed your life's calling.


: Acceptance is irrelevant? Maybe it is to you. Maybe acceptance is
: irrelevant to acceptance in your mind, but I see it the proper way.
: Acceptance is in fact acceptance.

If acupuncture works, it doesn't matter whether or not it is accepted;
and if it does not work, it doesn't matter whether or not it is accepted.

Actually, you're wrong on both counts. If it does work, it should be
accepted. Its very safe, has no side-effects, its practical, fast
acting; plus patients & MD's like it. If it doesn't work, is should
NOT be accepted. If it doesn't work, it shouldn't be taught &
practiced in major medical schools...or anywhere else. I guess you're
just trying to be obtuse....

It is not clear to me why you are being so obtuse about this.

Hey! That's my line! You're the one being obtuse, Richard. It works,
its acceptance is a function of that, and you'll be seeing it in MORE
major medical schools hospitals. You'll see more and more MD's doing
it in the USA, UK, FDR, Canada, France, and other advanced
countries.

Its growing, not shrinking! Its growing in acceptance within the
medical community. Heck, 60% of the USA's MD's believe its at least
somewhat effective and 46% of the UK GP's want to learn it and
practice on their patients.

On the other hand, you're sitting and scratching your head in
disbelief. Sounds like you're behind the times!

(FWIW, you asked the question of what % of MD's could pass a class in
statistics. The answer is 100%, because it is required in both the
undergraduate level and in medical school. I took two units just to
get a batchelors in Psychology)


-----
Richard Schultz schu...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean. Do you have to salt your
truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Acupuncture Could Boost Fertility
    ... Its acceptance by a majority of MD's ... Except that the experimental group consisted of 15 men. ... Acupuncture has worked for 1000's of years. ... Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: Acupuncture for Headaches
    ... :> I also feel very comfortable saying that you are lying when you say that. ... say that I said acupuncture only works when performed by a licensed ... can only be done properly by a licensed acupuncturist, making double-blinding ... If you believe that "acceptance" is evidence of efficacy, ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: Medical Acupuncture
    ... :> I would consider acceptance to be a properly controlled study that shows ... :> that acupuncture is more effective than a placebo for a given condition. ... Acceptance is not the same as efficacy, ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: Acupuncture Training at University of Miami Medical School
    ... The faux-skeptics, specifically Martin & Richard, have ... >a fanatical devotion to the ideas that acupuncture doesn't work ... > and is not accepted within mainstream medicine. ... we both agree that Acupuncture is growing in its acceptance within ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: Acupuncture Could Boost Fertility
    ... Its acceptance by a majority of MD's ... See the words "The sperm production of these seven males increased ... is concluded that acupuncture may be a useful, ...
    (misc.health.alternative)