Re: Do Pharmabloggers Dream of Electric Homeopaths? (Or Rozilla vs. PeteyB)


Rich wrote:
"PeterB" <pkm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Rich wrote:
"PeterB" <pkm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Rich wrote:
"PeterB" <pkm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Rich wrote:


No "we" don't. The fact that food is nutritious is common knowledge
and
needs no referrences. The burden is on you to prove that
supplements
are
necessary or useful.

No, the burden of proof is on you to show that all food is equally
nutritious,

Whoever said that all food is equally nutritious?


that everyone gets an adequate amount,

Whoever said that everyone gets an adequate amount?

and that supplements
are not useful to those who don't.

I didn't even say that. It depends on why the person in question is
not
getting enough nutrition. Is she pregnant? Debilitated by illness or
injury?
Have an absorption disorder? Then supplements are not only "useful,"
but
are
perhaps vital. But note that the necessary supplements in these cases
are
just the normal, inexpensive variety, not the pricey stuff on the
quack
websites. That said, otherwise healthy people who are not getting
adequate
nutrition from their diets need to change their diets, not their pill
taking.

Maybe they don't want to change their diet, or can't. Maybe they rely
on fast food due to schedules. Maybe they smoke. Maybe they don't
like fresh foods. My brother never liked fruit, so he uses a green
drink. Maybe people feel better taking supplements. Maybe, like me,
they saw their blood pressure drop 20 points after taking 500mg daily
vitamin C for a few months. It was actually later than I ran across a
Lancet study showing that very benefit in a group of patients taking
exactly the same amount. Consequently, I'll never stop. Just because
people have choices doesn't mean they are going to accomodate what
*you* think is best for them.


I believe you said you don't take
a multi vitamin, which means you ignore the recommendation of AMA,
as
well as the science that shows better health in those who do so.
Just
because *your* diet is adequate, doesn't mean everyone else's is.

If theirs isn't, change that.

It's not an either/or proposition. They can change both. Better food,
better supplements. Some people even have two cars and too many pairs
of shoes.

But they don't NEED that extra car or all those shoes. Actually I have no
problem with people taking stuff they don't need. My quibble is with the
quacks that tell them they DO need supplements and that only high-priced
"natural" supplements will do.

I'm afraid you don't get to define what someone "needs" based on
criteria that fits your life. I need a vitamin C supplement because it
lowers my blood pressure, and because I don't eat enough fruit.

You keep bringing this up. Do you have any evidence that vitamin C lowers
blood pressure, or is your claim strictly anecdotal?

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/newsarch/1999/Dec99/level.htm

And WHY don't you eat
enough fruit?

What is "enough?" Who can say when the amount of antioxidant intake is
sufficient to reduce someone's disease risk optimally? We can only
speak in general terms. What we do know is that those in the highest
quartile of *supplemental* vitamin c intake are in better health than
their counterparts, and that animal models suggest dramatically higher
vitamin C intake for humans.

Fruit has a lot of nutritional benefit besides vitamin C,
including some antioxidants that are even more effective. And as food goes,
it's relatively cheap. (Acutally, here in Hawaii, It's mosty free. The
nurses's lounge nearly always has boxes of give-away bananas, papayas,
mangos, lilikoi, rambutan, limes, avacados, coconuts, and other excess
harvest from co-workers' backyard trees.)

Your exception doesn't make a rule. Supplemental vitamin C is still
cheap insurance for most people.

I need
a fish oil supplement because it improves my cholesterol, and I don't
eat enough fatty fish. It may not be true for everyone, but it's true
for many peole. As for vitamins that are naturally-occuring
(food-grade form) and synthetic (non food-grade form), you need to
educate yourself about the differences in these substances, how they
are metabolized, and their impact to human health. Again, find a good
book on the subject (The Vitamin E Factor by Dr. Andreas Papas is a
good one) and let us know what you learn.

I've already learned tht vitamins from food are more effective than those
from supplements, and that "natural vitamins" are outrageously expensive.
What more do I need to know?

"More effective" is an ambiguity, like saying rope is better than tape.
When I say supplements are better than drugs, I back it up with
science. Taking vitamin C to lower my blood pressure carries no side
effects, costs less, and doesn't require a prescription. The real
problem is that the drug makers can't prove a positive risk-adjusted
benefit in patients who take long-term meds because there isn't one (or
it's so rare you'll be lucky to add even one day of extra life.)

PeterB

.

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