Re: Peter Moran admits he's never had it happen to him


<awthrawthr@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Peter Moran wrote:
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Peter Moran wrote:
<awthrawthr@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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But, OK, let me give a provisional yes. Now what?


I don't understand...what do you mean by "provisional?" This isn't
a
theoretical question..

Peter Moran: It IS a theoretical question. It has never happened to
me.
So, what now?

Peter, it is a hypothetical question, not a theoretical one. So what
you do now is quite simple...you answer the question. It's not a
hard
question: do you pick up the phone to find out more, or do you let
it
pass?

It is extremely rude for those hiding behind anonymity to use my name
in
such a subject heading. But I am quite happy for everything about ME
to
be out in the open, so ---

You sign your name to everything, but you find it rude to have what you
say publicized??

My experience told me to be sure of the facts concerning any
alternative
claim, especially those being presented at third or fourth hand by
people
not prepared to stake their own reputations on what they say or
support.

This not obviously a "real" case, despite what you have been
asserting..

It most certainly is a real case. Dr. Brenner, FACR, wrote about it in
his own words. So would you have tried to find out more after being
stunned by the sight of a bone mets patient in remission?

Have you answered my last question to you? I repeat it here ---

Yes I did, and you ignored most of it and tried to discredit the rest
of it without any evidence.

For those not following the discussion on another newsgroup, here is how
the
discussion evolved on my side.--

But your version of the story claims that it was the remission of a
patient
with bone metastases from lung cancer who first led Brenner to look into
Revici's cases. Why would he talk about a less convincing case to the
OTA?

Why are you concerned about that minutiae instead of dealing with the
fact that you've admitted that you've never seen a bone mets patient go
into complete remission?

Don't feel alone, Dr. Brenner, FACR hadn't either in over 30 years
UNTIL the Revici patient showed up...and think about this...Since
Brenner was a radiation oncologist he probably saw 10 to 100 times as
many patients as you did.

Brenner first found out about Revici in 1985 or perhaps later. The
patient you are referring to was first seen by Revici in 1980. If that
patient had walked in, maybe Brenner wouldn't have been gobsmacked
enough to pick up the phone to call Revici.

So DO YOU GET IT? They are TWO DIFFERENT patients.

You see, this is why those with cancer cure claims need to publish their
results themselves, as a signal for the cases to be independently
examined
and confirmed if genuine.

It didn't happen the way you wanted it to happen. So what? Dr. Brenner
confirmed them to be genuine. Dr. Rudy Falk reconfirmed it.

No one is obliged to accept supporters' or
journalists' or your anonymous third or fourth hand accounts of what
these
patients were like. I have no idea how critically you have looked at
these
cases or indeed what your capacity is to do so.

I've told you already that it isn't third or fourth hand...it is from
Dr. Brenner's own written words. He wrote them in a foreword of a book.

I have been there and done that with Gerson's "famous" fifty cases at
http://members.bordernet.com.au/~pmoran/cancer/Gerson.htm , which took
hours of my time, but ended up reaching the same conclusion as others
before
me. I am sure the same issues would arise with Revici. He was of the
same
vintage. He would share the same atavistic middle European backwardness
in
relation to good science that applied early last century. He had
similar
very naive and *still* unsupported views of the nature of cancer, which
remains another of the hurdles Revici has yet to overcome..

Ain't it funny how this backward European...who worked with a fellow
backward European, Albert Einstein, to develop a mathematical equation
for lipids...has a patient who recovered in a way that you've never
seen in your life.

For someone who lives in a former penal colony, you might want to be
cautious about accusing others of having recessive genes. BTW, Revici
lived over 101 years, not bad for someone with recessed genes.

I remain prepared to look at the evidence for claims that otherwise
incurable cancer can be cured, but not without reliable case histories,
biopsy results and other tests in my hands, or otherwise reliably
verified..

So you've finally answered the question...you would not have picked up
the phone to find out more if a patient of yours returned in complete
remission from lung cancer with bone mets. It would not have been
enough for you to have peaked your curiousity to take the next step to
find out IF there was something there.

Now was that so hard?

You finally told us your thinking process. That is informative.

You aren't the only one. The famed neurosurgeon, Dr. Joseph Ransahoff,
also didn't pick up the phone. According to Brenner's testimony before
Rep. Molinari, Ransahoff did tell Dr. Brenner, "Wow! This is amazing.
Keep in touch with me."

On another occasion Brenner asked Ransahoff if a doctor with a
glioblastoma ought to be treated by Revici. According to Brenner,
Ransahoff replied, "I agree totally. I'll cooperate any way I can.
Don't use my name."

Ransahoff's comment speaks volumes.

Another function of the intention to publish results is to force the
claimant to document and follow-up their patients well.

Well isn't that peachy keen. Revici is dead, so he probably won't be
meeting your standard. Since he was 'irresponsible, backward and
possibly possessing recessive genes' then the best approach would
probably be continue ignoring the patients whom he helped to achieve
complete remissions.

So far, when the facts are checked, "alternative" case histories and
testimonials too often fail to stand up to close examination,

How in the heck would you know if you wouldn't pick up the phone, based
on your assumption that the cases wouldn't turn out so good?

or the "good"
cases remain too few to be obviously due to the treatment

Too few?? if you've seen 10,000 patients and none of them ever went
into remission if they had bone metasteses...and Dr. Brenner saw
100,000 or 200,000 or even more and never saw it either (until 1985),
how many remissions does it take to be a signifiant number?

rather than the
many other reasons why cancer sometimes doesn't behave as expected.

Cancer sometimes doesn't behave as expected?? Please tell us of ONE
time when a lung cancer patient with bone mets didn't die with his
disease...oh that's right, 100% of them die that way! If something
doesn't go away 100% of the time, then describing it as a disease that
doesn't behave as expected just makes you look wacky.


Firstly, I only have your word for it that such a case exists. You have
produced no source material for it. Brenner, to whom you refer constantly
as your source of information and your sole authority doesn't mention such
a case in his talk to the OTA, which I find very telling if it is such a
spectacular case as you want to make it here.

Secondly, it would be very surprising if such cases don't exist. My not
having seen one and Brenner not having seen one proves nothing at all.
Certainly cases of lung cancer with metastases have been reported as
undergoing spontaneous remission. See
http://www.noetic.org/research/sr/files/chapter3.pdf .

But much more common than spontaneous remissions are other reasons why
cancer "sometimes doesn't behave as expected". Faulty staging is common,
due to misinterpretation of radiological findings. We have already
mentioned the occasional unusually good response to palliative treatments,
such as palliative radiotherapy for inoperable lung cancer (another study
found 61 such cases). The histological diagnosis can be wrong, or the
wrong kind of cancer diagnosed, changing everything.

And you think I am wacky. Let's see. For nearly a century now we have had
alternative supporters like yourself giving those with dubious cancer cures
the benefit of the doubt. Instead of pushing the claimants to produce cured
cases in convincing numbers and of reasonable quality in the orthodox way,
the tactic has been to whinge and whine about the doctors.

How many cancer cures has this validated? Yes, exactly none, even while
more and more quacks, villains and the hopelessly deluded have been
encouraged to enter the alternative cancer marketplace. It is so easy to do
so and there is an instant band of supporters and defenders for you. Now,
that's wacky.

Peter Moran

www.cancerwatcher.com



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Relevant Pages

  • Re: A message for Peter Moran, et al
    ... Every cancer doctor hopefully has one patient he can ... When Dr. Seymour Brenner, M.D. FACR, saw a metastatic lung cancer ... of practice...so he went to see Revici himself to find out what was up. ...
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  • A message for Peter Moran, et al
    ... Every cancer doctor hopefully has one patient he can ... When Dr. Seymour Brenner, M.D. FACR, saw a metastatic lung cancer ... of practice...so he went to see Revici himself to find out what was up. ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: A message for Peter Moran, et al
    ... natural cures is due to monetary greed...although certainly the drug ... Every cancer doctor hopefully has one patient he can ... of practice...so he went to see Revici himself to find out what was up. ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: A message for Peter Moran, et al
    ... natural cures is due to monetary greed...although certainly the drug ... Every cancer doctor hopefully has one patient he can ... of practice...so he went to see Revici himself to find out what was up. ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: Peter Moran admits hes never had it happen to him
    ... But your version of the story claims that it was the remission of a patient ... with bone metastases from lung cancer who first led Brenner to look into ... Brenner first found out about Revici in 1985 or perhaps later. ...
    (misc.health.alternative)