Re: Opinions on Echinacea


cathyb wrote:
> PeterB wrote:
> > cathyb wrote:
> > > PeterB wrote:
> > > > cathyb wrote:
> > > > > PeterB wrote:
> > > > > > cathyb wrote:
> > > > > > > PeterB wrote:
> > > > > > > > cathyb wrote:
> > > > > > > > > PeterB wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Answer the question. Did you not swear off debating the data?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yep. Petey's plaintive begging got too much, though.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > However, in his last reply:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mentions of 'pharmablogging': 6 or 7
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Oblique references to 'pharmablogging': Several more.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > cathy whines about the darnedest things; just a few weeks ago, she said
> > > > > > > > she found my assertions entertaining.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yep, that's true.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I also said that it made arguing with him on any actual issues
> > > > > > > pointless.
> > > > > > > Which Petey B has been at pains to prove.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would say things got a little
> > > > > > > > rough for her in this round. Be sure to read the above rebuttal from
> > > > > > > > which she snipped all but 11 words, if you want to see the evasive
> > > > > > > > maneuvers of a Pharma Blogger in action. You might say they have a
> > > > > > > > problem dealing with the facts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Evidence to support his contention that nutrition was the cause of the
> > > > > > > > > precipitous drop in measles after the introduction of vaccination: NIL.
> > > > > > > > > Not one piece.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I covered this but you snipped it before posting your cop-out rebuttal.
> > > > > > > > I'll repeat: The 5 decade decline in measles morbidity PRIOR to
> > > > > > > > vaccination tracked improvements in environmental factors (described in
> > > > > > > > the earlier post), and continued past 1960 when such advances became
> > > > > > > > even more pronounced. Prior to measles vaccine, 90% of the decline in
> > > > > > > > measles deaths had already occured, so the sole basis for your argument
> > > > > > > > is the additional 10 percentage points of reduction in overall
> > > > > > > > morbidity (using the full data set, not just the slice you find
> > > > > > > > convenient to your theory.) Put another way, measles vaccine did not
> > > > > > > > exist when 90% of measles infection was already a thing of the past.
> > > > > > > > It isn't logical to give vaccine credit for more than a tiny slice of
> > > > > > > > the remaining and relatively miniscule reduction in rates of infection.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Petey is confusing measles morbidity and measles deaths again here.
> > > > > > > Whether he's doing it on purpose, or just hasn't noticed depends on
> > > > > > > whether he's dim or duplicitous.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here cathyb shoots herself in the foot.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well here's the thing. I actually thought Petey might have noticed his
> > > > > mistake without having it spelled out.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, here we go: measles mortality is well-documented to have
> > > > > declined prior to vaccination. Measles morbidity is not, and did not.
> > > > > And Petey, bless him, actually used the two interchangably in his
> > > > > 'explanation' above.
> > > >
> > > > I was mistaken not to discuss the two trendlines separately, it was
> > > > late and I was tired. It doesn't change the fact that 90% of measles
> > > > death were behind us when vaccination began. It also doesn't suggest
> > > > that measles vaccine be given credit for more than a part of the
> > > > additional 10 points of drop in the rate of death. Nutrition was
> > > > always the key, and always will be.
> > >
> > > Nutrition is important, and always will be. Improvements in
> > > conventional medicine that meant more people survived the measles
> > > complications that lead to death also played a part.
> >
> > I see your handlers decided your "goofy" routine wasn't working.
>
> Lordy, he really is a total arse.
>
> > Now
> > you have a slightly better script (only slightly.) Is this the new and
> > improved cathyb for all time? Or is it just for me? Never mind, I'll
> > be happy that now when you talk in circles it doesn't take us back to
> > square one in the same sentence.
> >
> > Part of clinical treatment for measles during the 1940s and 1950s was
> > administration of vitamin A, which greatly improved survival rates in
> > those patients. Can you point to any conventional medicine that was
> > nearly as effective? Obviously, vitamin A therapy is an approach in
> > natural medicine.
>
> Why?

In other words, the answer is no, you can't.

> Were they given better food?

It was given as medication.

> Or were they given nasty tablets,
> administered by doctors and nurses in surgeries and hospitals?

Would you refer to vaccine as a "nasty" shot? I would, because that's
what dead virus is -- nasty. Not vitamin A, though.

>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > The percentage of deaths
> > > > > > relative to infection actually trended UP in several of the years
> > > > > > following vaccination, which any high schooler could plainly determine
> > > > > > with a $2 calculator. That's is the kind of information cathyb doesn't
> > > > > > know how to talk about, because it doesn't fit her belief that
> > > > > > vaccination was driving measles infection, or deaths, further down.
> > > > > > She also doesn't bother to explain how measles infection, and deaths,
> > > > > > declined by 90% before vaccine was introduced.
> > > > >
> > > > > But morbidity didn't. Unless Petey is accepting and exaggerating my
> > > > > earlier mistake, and there was an annual incidence of 4.5--5.5 million.
> > > > > I'd really love to see his evidence for that. Unless it's another ghost
> > > > > report from whaleto.
> > > >
> > > > See above.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Something I forgot to mention in the earlier post. Dr. Mark Reecher, a
> > > > > > > > consultant in public health medicine at the Public Health Laboratory
> > > > > > > > Service, in Colindale, (PULSE, January 18, 1997), stated that "measles
> > > > > > > > is wrongly diagnosed in 97 per cent of cases...these findings show how
> > > > > > > > inherently difficult it is to make a diagnosis based on clinical
> > > > > > > > symptoms alone. Any doctor would find it difficult to differentiate
> > > > > > > > between viruses." Clearly, a disparity in measles reporting could
> > > > > > > > explain variations in the number of reported cases, such that
> > > > > > > > vaccinated children WITH measles could themselves be easily
> > > > > > > > misdiagnosed, partly on the assumption they "should not have" measles
> > > > > > > > once vaccinated. It's likely, therefore, that actual numbers of
> > > > > > > > measles infection are much higher than current reporting now indicates.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Something for which he provides no evidence other than his wish to
> > > > > > > believe it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The quote itself is evidence, unless you suggest I take your word over
> > > > > > that of a professional medical doctor, and consultant on issues of
> > > > > > virology at a modern medical center.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hm. The quote is only to be found on whaleto, and two chiropractic
> > > > > sites. Similarly, the name of the doctor who gave it. The actual
> > > > > article mentions no study, or publication where the study may be found.
> > > > > Very convincing.
> > > >
> > > > If you had subscribed to PULSE, you would have seen it there first.
> > > > The quote was not a study abstract, but an observation made by a
> > > > medical professional. I never claimed it was a PubMed report. Any
> > > > doctor will tell you that identifying a specific infectious disease
> > > > without forensics is really a judgement call; there are too many
> > > > viruses and similarity of symptoms. You don't need a study to know
> > > > that doctors are bad at diagnoses without tests.
> > >
> > > This has changed from "the quote itself is evidence" to an "observation
> > > by *a* medical prfessional".
> >
> > It isn't a contradiction. Relevant commentary by those in the medical
> > profession needs to be considered, it's how you arrive at a balanced
> > view.
>
> One comment. In one publication. Giving no data. Very balanced.
> Did he look anywhere else for 'balance'?

I'm sure he must have opened a fortune cookie and got his numbers from
a lottery tip. You're right, cathy, everyone should be listening to
you, a girl who posts to usenet with no medical training or knowledge.


>
> >
> > >
> > > Is it backed up anywhere else? Why, if as this Reecher claimed, he
> > > studied 12000 cases and found a 97% error rate in measles reporting,
> > > did he not publish his data? Is there anything, anywhere, that backs up
> > > his claim?
> >
> > I'll look into it. I would point out that what he found, if published,
> > would be politically explosive. Perhaps he tried and the journals
> > flinched.
>
> He really does like a conspiracy when reason fails him, doesn't he?

The publication landscape in medical journal writing is well known to
be political; people don't get published just because their data is
good. Or don't you read outside of usenet?

>
> > Those things do happen, although I don't know in this case.
> > In a similar vein, I will ask you for the sixth time: Do you have any
> > long-term, double-blind study references showing that vaccine works
> > more than 10% of the time? Yes, or no?
>
> Absolutely not.

Cathyb at last admits that she cannot provide any "long-term,
double-blind study references showing that vaccine works more than 10%
of the time." In other words, NO ONE knows how effective vaccine is
because NO ONE has data supporting such claims. Thank you, cathy.
That's the point of this entire exercise.


> Petey spent quite some time to convince everyone that better nutrition
> caused a 90% reduction in measles morbidity, before confessing that he
> was a bit tired, and er, completely wrong.

Better nutrition led to a 90% reduction in measles mortality, far more
important than morbidity, which was the point I was clearly making.
And the point remains that vaccine can't take credit for that decline
in measles death. Also, let me remind you that your error regarding
4-5 million infections was off by more than 4 MILLION, or 1000%.

>
> Measles incidence had remained pretty steady up until the 1960s, when a
> vaccine that had been tested for efficacy was introduced. Oddly, in
> every country, as it was introduced, measles incidence plummeted in
> just a few years.

Only Long-term virology studies can prove this. Associations are nice
but they aren't proof.

> Petey has no explanation for this (Occam's razor is obviously beyond
> him), and despite all the evidence, posits that measles is still out
> there, and doctors refuse to admit it because their patients are
> vaccinated.

Doctors evaluate a lot of viral agents, they can't be expected to
distinguish between them easily. Ask any doctor and he will admit
this, particularly with regard to viral infections.

>
> He then adds to this asinine rubbish, by saying that in his opinion,
> the measles vaccine is only 10% effective.

I would be surprised if it's that effective, but it's possible.
Unfortunately, we'll never know because the drug makers won't do the
studies.

>
> He has not a single piece of evidence for this. Not one.

That's the problem, nobody has the evidence.

>
> Scientific reasoning and logic? LOL.

Yes, I'm laughing to...

>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is a peer-reviewed study listed on pubmed which touches on Peter'
> > > > > guess that doctors are unlikely to diagnose measles in a vaccinated
> > > > > child:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2409903&query_hl=7.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, it says that measles is in fact over-diagnosed in
> > > > > vaccinated subjects. It's only one study, and I'd prefer to see more
> > > > > data before I relied on it, but it's a hell of a lot more data than
> > > > > Petey has for his guess.
> > > >
> > > > Citing data showing that doctors attribute symptoms to measles in a
> > > > vaccinated patient might be telling you something more about the
> > > > vaccine than the patient.
> > >
> > > What? That the measles vaccine isn't 100% effective? Find someone who
> > > doesn't know that.
> > >
> > > The study appears to say, however, that it may be more effective than
> > > is thought.
> >
> > That's just wishful thinking on your part. The reference says this was
> > a 4mth study in the city of Lagos, Nigeria. There is no mention of the
> > study size, however it clearly has no bearing on clinical practices in
> > the USA or Britain.
>
> As I pointed out, its not a study on which I would rely without more
> data. However, it is some data, which is more that Petey has come up
> with for either of his arguments.

Where is the data? How many patients were evaluated? Can we
extrapolate this evaluation from Nigeria to clinical practice in the
United States or Britain? Poor cathy, she tries so hard to make it
work, but it just doesn't.

>
> > I imagine the clinical staff in such a facility
> > would have been a problem; that is, in the face of diverse viral
> > agents, or other illness typical of the African population, an
> > indigenous medical staff might not have been experienced enough to
> > avoid such errors.
>
>
> Hm. So with a greater number of possible diagnoses than would face a US
> doctor, they are *more* likely to diagnose measles in a vaccinated
> subject?

First, we aren't told how many patients were treated. Secondly, the
abstract makes no attempt to analyse WHY misdiagnosis occurred. We
don't know if this was an indigent person's bias based on personal
history, bad diagnostic tools, or bad assumptions. We have no idea.

> Interesting reasoning. Along with his assumption that
> indigenous African staff in hospitals are incompetent.

In the absence of data, we just don't know about that particular clinic
or facility, do we?

> Presumably any
> US doctor found there would be tickety-boo. Nice.

You said it, not me.

>
> > Only out of context does this abstract support your
> > argument. It's not at all about over-diagnosis of measles in any
> > general sense.
>
> It was a study into the possible causes of vaccine failure. It found
> that in a third of cases, there had not been vaccine failure, but a
> misdiagnosis of measles.

And it doesn't extrapolate outside of Lagos, unless Nigeria is to be
compared with a First world nation.

>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Sorry, cathyb, you still haven't
> > > > > > found the wizard. No wizard, no brain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oddly, the anti-vac liars rarely like the "changes in diagnosis"
> > > > > > > argument when it is applied to, say, autism.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The vaccine coverup jockeys love to change the subject; see how they
> > > > > > never address the facts, the actual data? Predictable.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If Petey uses an argument to back up his wild guesses, he really should
> > > > > expect to have it criticised. Perhaps he can come up with some actual
> > > > > data to back his assertion that measles is massively under-diagnosed
> > > > > instead?
> > > >
> > > > Actually, I didn't make that assertion, I simply quoted a medical
> > > > professional who said it was a problem. But if he's half right, that's
> > > > a huge amount of under-reporting.
> > >
> > > And what if he's only 40% right? Or 10% right? Data?
> >
> > It's the same question I've been asking you about the effectiveness of
> > vaccine; the drug makers have no long-term studies to back it up, but
> > here you are asking readers to accept it on the word of a usenet
> > poster. Or put another way, it proves how desperate the drug companies
> > are to rely on you to promote vaccine.
>
> Oh, see above. For Pete's sake. He quotes someone, builds an argument
> on this quote, admits the guy might only be half-right (and frankly
> there's nothing to show it even comes close), and then moans when I ask
> for some other basis for his argument.

Cathy is still hinting that I need to prove a negative, while she
skates on providing long-term virology showing ANY percentage of
successful immunization. We just don't know the answers, but I suspect
10% is a fair guess.


> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Evidence to support his contention that measles vaccination works in
> > > > > > > > > only 10% of cases: NIL.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's a reasonable guess in lieu of the absence of long-term study
> > > > > > > > results which the pharmaceuticals refuse to conduct. What are they
> > > > > > > > afraid of? I would be happy to see you pull a long-term study result
> > > > > > > > showing double-blind lab analysis documenting 30% or 50% long-term
> > > > > > > > immunization. It would change the entire debate. I'll ask it again:
> > > > > > > > where is the data proving that vaccination provides long-term
> > > > > > > > immunization, and in what percentage of patients? And if you don't
> > > > > > > > have it, which you obviously don't, how do YOU know the rate of
> > > > > > > > immunization is BETTER than 10%? You don't.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's a guess, certainly. For which he has provided no evidence, again.
> > > > > > > Nor any reason suppose it's a reasonable guess.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Answer the question. How do YOU know the rate of immunization is BETTER
> > > > > > than 10%? Where is your data supporting a "better" guess? You don't
> > > > > > have it, do you?
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, here are a few studies of the many available on pub-med that
> > > > > touch on measles vaccination efficacy:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15176719&query_hl=5
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15106101&query_hl=5
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15106099&query_hl=5
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1221698&query_hl=17.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything that came even close to
> > > > > suggesting a failure rate of 90%.
> > > >
> > > > With anti-body titres, health surveys, and multiple jabs for assurance,
> > > > all we have is guesswork about the value of measles vaccine.
> > >
> > > So still no data to support a failure rate of 90%?
> >
> > Still no data to support ANY percentage of effective immunization, so
> > my guess is as good as anyone's. That's been my point all along: in
> > the absence of long-term data, there is no reason to vaccinate, and
> > probably a reason to avoid it.

cathy goes silent...


> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Virology
> > > > is expensive and I guess the drug makers would rather spend that money
> > > > on promotion than long-term, double blind studies. What we do know is
> > > > that 90% of measles deaths occured prior to the vaccine campaign,
> > > > therefore quality of nutrition and lifestyle are far more important to
> > > > health than vaccination.
> > >
> > > No, we know that they are very important with respect to measles
> > > mortality. However, when measles outbreaks occur, there is still
> > > mortality (look at the 1989--1991 spike), and the best way of avoiding
> > > outbreaks is vaccination, i.e., avoidance of the measles morbidity that
> > > better living and nutritional standards had not touched
> >
> > Another ipso facto declaration without good science to back it up.
>
> Bollocks. See above.

See above, indeed.

>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Apparently, neither can Peter.
> > > >
> > > > Right. I can't find evidence that vaccine accounts for improvements in
> > > > survival after measles infection because the makers don't have that
> > > > evidence. Insteady, they rely on people like you to promote
> > > > vaccination for them. Funny world we live in.
> > >
> > >
> > > The evidence sought is for the claim that vaccines are effective in
> > > only 10% of cases.
> >
> > The evidence sought is for long-term study data supporting ANY
> > percentage of effective immunization. Since the drug companies don't
> > have it, neither do you. The script only works part of the time, you
> > know.

Cathy goes silent...


> > >
> > > BTW, people who have not caught measles because they were vaccinated
> > > against it, generally don't die of measles.
> >
> > Let's rewrite your statement above to see how ridiculous a non sequitur
> > it is:
> >
> > BTW, people who have not gotten cancer because they were radiated,
> > generally don't die of cancer.
>
> Ok, he came up with his definitely worst analogy yet. Comparison of a
> preventative method with a cure. Very bright.

Yet another non sequitur, since you never proved vaccine to be
preventive. See why I re-write your crap?

>
>
> >
> > On second thought, cathy, your handlers might need more time to sort
> > things out.
> >
> > PeterB
>
> Shan't even bother with the rest of this blethering about how
> vaccination doesn't work because Petey doesn't want it too. Perhaps he
> could come up with some environmental change that coincides exactly
> with the introduction of measles vaccination in a country to virtually
> eradicate the disease.

More ipso facto declarations, ie., the oft-repeated lie...typical of
Pharma Bloggers on behalf of industry...

PeterB

.