Re: Opinions on Echinacea


David Wright wrote:
> In article <1123853914.560881.10690@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
> PeterB <pkm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >David Wright wrote:
> >> In article <1123700043.135376.270390@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
> >> PeterB <pkm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >cathyb wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> As Petey must know, what I actually posted was:
> >> >>
> >> >> "People are intuitively very bad at risk assessment Jan--they waste
> >> >> money on lottery tickets, where the chances of winning are millions to
> >> >> one, instead of keeping money in a bank where they are guaranteed a
> >> >> (small) rate of return. And they take the relatively high risk of their
> >> >>
> >> >> kids dying or being impaired by diseases, because they are frightened
> >> >> of the much, much smaller risk of vaccine damage.
> >> >
> >> >What's your evidence that a "relatively high risk of kids dying or
> >> >being impaired by diseases" follows not being vaccinated? And how do
> >> >you know the risk of vaccine damage is "much, much smaller?" The world
> >> >is waiting for you to enlighten us.
> >>
> >> If we work from something like VAERS data to get our risk estimates
> >> for vaccines, and we use ordinary mortality/morbidity statistics for
> >> diseases, are you suggesting that the case for not vaccinating is
> >> stronger? Have you even bothered to check?
> >>
> >> Taking measles as an example, someone pointed out the other day that
> >> in the US, measles mortality per year was in the hundreds; claimed MMR
> >> mortality per year in VAERS is under a dozen. How's that for
> >> starters?
> >
> >The problem is that VAERS doesn't adjust for the rate of attrition. We
> >don't know how many of these deaths represent children who were
> >vaccinated but contracted measles and died anyway. If both occured, it
> >isn't ethical to attribute mortality to measles alone when immunization
> >(sic) was concomitant.
>
> But with numbers of these relative magnitudes, it also doesn't matter.
> Even if all half-dozen or so of the VAERS cases were actually killed
> by the vaccine, or even if they all caught measles and died solely of
> that, the *overall* improvement is so great that it makes no
> difference.

It matters, and for other important reasons. What is the evidence that
declines in incidence of measles is related to vaccination and not to
improvements in nutritional status? Established clinical data links
contraction and severity of measels to deficiency of vitamin A, whereas
vitamin A was used to dramatically lower mortality from measles prior
to use of antibiotics. Also, health studies show measles infection in
vaccinated communities can occur nearly as often, in some cases more
often, than in non-vaccinated populations. Any premise that dead virus
stimulates an adequate immune response in people with already
diminished immunity is more about successful marketing than virology or
cause and effect.

> Unless you can show that measles vaccine is doing something perfectly
> awful to those receiving it, the efficacy and value of vaccination is
> a closed question, and vaccination is good.

A glaring non-sequitur. Even if the vaccine is perfectly harmless,
which it isn't, that doesn't mean it's "efficacy and value" is a
"closed question" or that "vaccination is good." Saying "gee whiz" is
perfectly harmless, that doesn't mean saying "gee whiz" is beneficial
to my health.

PeterB

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Opinions on Echinacea
    ... measles mortality per year was in the hundreds; ... >> mortality per year in VAERS is under a dozen. ... Unless you can show that measles vaccine is doing something perfectly ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: Benefits of flu vaccine overestimated in elderly people
    ... thus measles infection ceased to be problematic before the ... The point is that without evidence, ... measles vaccine doesn't work. ... again Petey claims mysterious "other factors" reduced measles ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: MEASLES CASES BY YEAR
    ... is the table with measles cases and deaths (prior to measles ... You said the vaccine was approved in 1963 and started *widespread* use ... responsible for stemming all those measles deaths is what you are ... of infection ceased to be predictive of death long before the vaccine ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: Opinions on Echinacea
    ... >> cathyb wrote: ... >> clinical studies on vaccine means confounding factors don't exist ... >> demonstrated that vitamin A supplementation reduces severe morbidity ... >> vitamin A (even AFTER measles contraction), ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
  • Re: Benefits of flu vaccine overestimated in elderly people
    ... > measles vaccine doesn't work. ... So you admit that a decline in mortality in infectious disease ... again Petey claims mysterious "other factors" reduced measles ...
    (misc.health.alternative)
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