Re: Train routine

Hobbes <khobman800@xxxxxxxx> writes:

In article <87hce8nod4.fsf@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Jason Earl <jearl@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Steve Freides" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

"Jason Earl" <jearl@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:87ej9d54w2.fsf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Andrzej Rosa <bakters@xxxxxxxxx> writes:

Dnia 2008-04-10 Jason Earl napisal(a):
[...]
Besides, I have had good experiences with RKCs. I noticed that Dan
John
got his RKC recently. He's a very generous guy. I've emailed him a
few
times and he even invited me up to the Murray Institute of Health
for a
workout.

I stumbled on Dan John when I needed help badly. I was about to
give up, but just decided to give lifting a shot based on an old
post on mfw, where a guy wrote that he managed to successfully
battle his mental health problems by lifting weights. I started
with normal gym and was hooked. It seemed to work, but gym went
bang on me (like many times before) and I was on my own. Then I
found Dan John with loads and loads of ideas about how to train
which helped a lot, but I was already training by this time and
actively searching for ideas. Dan's approach helped me find what I
really like (that is one-armed lifts) and it's three times easier to
do what kinda "speaks to you" instead of whatever else.

But it didn't turn me into a danjohnite. It's almost impossible,
because he doesn't give you a ready made solution, but teaches you
how to find solutions for yourself. Use your head, improvise, make
things happen, do not complain, go on - stuff like that. I love the
guy, but he's not my guru. I don't think he is always right. It's
impossible, because he doesn't think it either, and is very honest
about all the mistakes and stupidities he did. Valuable person with
very good lessons to teach, but thankfully not a guru.

Weight lifting isn't religion, even if it is inspiring. There aren't
prophets shouting down from the mountain tops saying, "Thus saith the
Lord of Hosts." Worse, what works for you may or may not work for
me, and there are all different types of goals.

Weight lifting isn't religion in the sense that there are beliefs
which are prerequisites to the class, but taking good care of the body
we have can be seen as a religious obligation. The YMCA motto is
mind, body, spirit - or at least it used to be, and maybe I even got
the order wrong, but you get the idea. To take care of one's mind and
neglect the rest ain't "right," and I mean that in at least a
quasi-religious sense of the word.

I'm not arguing for neglecting the "body" part of body and soul by any
stretch of the imagination. In fact, my own religious beliefs happen to
hava a relatively strict dietary stricture, and the Jews take things
even further. I believe that my body is a temple and should be treated
with the utmost care and respect.

My point with the religious analogy was that when Moses told the
children of Israel to do something, not doing what he said got people
killed. If I decided to do two sets of 6 in my own variation of Power
to the People instead of 2 sets of 5 the ground is not going to swallow
me up.

In short, when it comes to exercise I don't believe that some forms of
exercise are good and some are evil. I do believe that some forms of
exercise are more appropriate for different goals, but even with that
caveat there are lots of different variations on the same basic themes.

The best you can do is try and find some people with more experience
than you and try and pick up some tricks.

Again, I sort of disagree. The best you can do is learn, and apply
your knowledge to your own training. There is more than just tricks
to be had here - there is an understanding of anatomy and the way our
bodies actually work, moving through space, that can and should serve
as a foundation for any exercise program. My own understanding is far
from complete, but at the same time it's better than most people's and
I keep trying to improve it and, along with that, to improve how I go
about my own training and how I counsel people to train themselves.

Knowledge is good, and learning certainly is fun, but I think my use of
the word "trick" is justifiable here. No amount of knowledge of
anatomy, biology, nutrition, exercise science, physiology, psychology,
or even numerology is going to make my deadlift go up by even one pound.
Worse, the body is so complex, and there is so much conflicting evidence
when it comes to strength training that each of us is basically forced
to conduct our own experiments which may or may not be reproducible when
we go to show our friend.

What's more, you don't have to understand one iota of the theory for a
given program to actually work. It doesn't matter if you do Power To
The People because you believe it has a sound scientific basis or
because "The Party says it will work."

The real advantage that someone like Pavel has is that they have been
able to experiment with large groups of people. Or in other words it is
his practical experience that is valuable. In Pavel's case I wouldn't
be at all surprised if he dug up his research after getting a good idea
as to what actually worked training real life people. What's more, I
would bet that if a definitive study came out tomorrow that pointed to
high volume curls with pink barbells as the best way to increase your
deadlift Pavel would continue telling people to use heavy weights and
low reps.

And I, at least, probably wouldn't join the pink dumbbell crowd because
of my own experience.

In short, I think that "the best you can do is try and find some people
with more experience than you and try and pick up some 'tricks.'"

Perhaps someday the science of exercise will get to the point where this
sort of experimentation isn't necessary. You'll go to the doctor and
tell him your fitness goals. He (or she) will then take some tests and
run your numbers through a computer. You'll do the required work, eat
the required foods, and your outcome will be within a few percentage
points of your goal.

At that point we'll have enough knowledge of what is actually going on
to do better than resort to tricks. In the meantime I personally am
much more comfortable with exercise routines created by experienced
trainers than by more experimental programs that look good on paper.

Just my $0.02.

Jason

Firstly, Pavel didn't have to dig up any research. His training methods
are very common in strength training in eastern Europe.

Errr. I think that's my point. It's not that Pavel did any research
(or even that he read a lot of books). Instead he simply gathered up a
bunch of well known gym experience and wrote it down. He cites enough
research (which he probably looked up after the fact) that he was able
to add a veneer of science to his book, but mostly he just took some
very common Eastern European training "tricks" and wrote them down. Add
a dash of anecdotal evidence, and comments from old time strong men and
modern powerlifters and you have basically got "Power to the People."

He certainly didn't sit down with a pile of studies and try and piece
together a workout. He took a workout that had proven itself in the
practical arena and looked up research that fit the practical results.

Personally, I don't think that makes it any less of a good book. I mean
seriously, it's not like you are going to read Power To The People
because of the science content.

Second, you actually can increase a lift with knowledge. Deadlift is a
good example. Anatomy and physiology knowledge may lead to a technique
adjustment that gives you better leverage.

Sure, or you could just follow Pavel's instructions by rote and then
compare your sumo deadlift weight to your conventional deadlift weight.
No special knowledge required. It might help to know enough anatomy so
that you have a guess as to which style better fits your body type, but
chances are good you are going to at least practice both styles either
way.

A bit of coaching from someone that knows deadlifting (who may or may
not know that their knee bone connects to the shin bone) and you are
further along than any number of guys that know tons about anatomy but
have never lifted anything heavier than a pencil.

As a somewhat better example, Olympic weightlifting has seen quite a bit
of variation of style over the years. Someone with some anatomical
knowledge may even have been involved in the development of the newer
styles at some point.

Or it might have just been some Eastern European lifter looking for an
edge (I honestly don't know).

Either way, you can learn to snatch without even learning to read.

Psychology is commonly used to focus on key areas. A common trick that
adds lbs to the deadlift is to tell the person to imagine they are on
a thin would platform with the bar fixed and try and drive your feet
though the floor. Works quite well.

Yes, and you don't have to understand a lick of psychology to have it
work. Visualizing pushing through the floor will help you deadlift even
if you can't spell psychology (or floor for that matter). What's more,
good coaches were using these sorts of techniques long before they came
up with the term psychology.

Jason
.