Re: Kansas boots the ID idiots

"misanthropic_curmudgeon"
<misanthropiccurmudgeon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

Jason Earl wrote:

I am not entirely sure who's beliefs you feel you are talking about,
but I don't believe that my Heavenly Father loves me any more than
anyone else. I am not even sure he loves me more than anything else
that he has created.

Well, I admitt I have assumed you refer to the Judeo-Christian
God[TM], given the language used, and assuming that I am right I
think you have missed my point. (Your) God[TM] loves everyone,
correct? Logic dictates that he also loved Lott daughters, Issac,
and the babies in Sodom. That did not stop him allowing thier rape,
demanded they be sacrificed, or killed. All were innocent parties.
You'd be quite happy for your God[TM] to do that to your kids?

I get your point. Like I said before, my religion isn't some sort of
magic whose sole purpose is to make my existence here on this earth
more comfortable. You see the injustice that is in the world and you
assume that an omnipotent diety would do something about it, and that
would be a reasonable assumption if we were mere toys or automatons.
However, I don't believe that is the case. I believe that we have
been given our agency so that we can choose for ourselves what sort of
people we are going to be. Some people make exceedingly poor choices,
but that's a necessity if we are to truly grow. I am not giving the
opportunity to choose wickedness how am I to learn to choose what is
right?

This life is a mere blip in our existence. I believe we lived before
we came to this earth, and I believe that we will continue to exist
after this life. My children think that I am mean when I make them
clean their rooms, but I don't let that bother me because I know that
I have a greater understanding of life than they do. Likewise
Heavenly Father has a better understanding of what is required to make
me the best person that I can be. God is willing to help me (and
you), but the choices are ours to make. Sometimes that means that bad
things happen to good people, but the reward is eternal and death only
momentary.

To bring things back on topic a little, it's somewhat like lifting
weights. It is the opposition that makes us stronger and forces our
muscles to grow. Our spirits work in approximately the same way. In
order to truly grow they must be tested and face opposition. Take
away that opposition and progression is impossible.

Jesus' death was not a particularly pretty one.

In that we agree, but the stab wound to his side would have
accelerated it, and therefore eased it.

I believe that the greater part of Jesus' suffering came upon him in
the Garden of Gethsemane where he took upon himself the pain and
suffering of the world. He suffered more than any other man because
God loved him most. The death on the cross was merely an end to the
suffering.

Perhaps now you can see why your examples don't seem particularly
cogent to me. There are plenty of examples in the scriptures and
throughout history where innocents have been killed. To some that
might seem like a tragedy. I happen to believe that good people go on
to a better place when they die, and that innocents (especially
children) are saved by the grace of Christ.

Good things sometimes happen to bad people, and bad things happen
to good people. That's how it has always been, and that's how it
is supposed to be.

It is called fate, or chance. But as soon as you introduce an
omnipotent being into the equation it becomes unjust, macarbe, and
psycopathic for _deliberately_ intoducing random suffering. If your
God[TM] was subject to the UN, he would be tried for crimes against
humanity.

Yes, and my three year-old complains when I make him eat his
vegetables too. That doesn't mean that I am a poor parent for making
him eat his vegetables. That's a poor example, I realize, but it
should give you an idea as to how ridiculous it is to blame God when
it is quite clear that you can't see the whole picture.

Yes, that's right neighborly of you. Of course, so far it would
appear that you are simply picking beliefs at random and attempting
to knock them down. It's pretty clear that you have no idea what
my "foundation" really looks like, and simply have a problem with
foundations in general.

I have a very clear understanding of the basic tennants of the
Judeo-Christian faith, thanks, having been brought up in the church,
attended mainstream services and evangelical meetings, and studied
the teachings.

You clearly heard some of the stories, but you completely missed the
teachings.

As I have said elsewhere: many an Athiests have read the Bible[TM],
it is many Christians who have not.

I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As
such I recognize quite a few more prophets than your standard fair
Christian :).

As for picking beliefs at random, it is like when I hunt quail:
sometimes there are just so many targets that it is so easy to to
dance over the top of 20, rather than target two. If it makes you
feel better, pick two.

I've hunted quail before. You have to be pretty lucky to score a hit
without aiming at a particular target. If you were a hunter you'd be
going home hungry.

Nothing personal, friend, but the Christians you have known can not
have been very sophisticated in their beliefs. The points you have
brought up are hardly revolutionary. Believe it or not Christians
have been asking themselves these same questions for thousands of
years now. Just because the Christians you have met did not know the
answers to these questions does not mean that the answers don't exist.

you'll have to pardon me if I find the whole thing a little
boring. I served a mission for my church about 15 years ago, and I
guarantee you that I've had this discussion any number of times.
You're not going to change my mind, and I am not particularly
interested in trying to change yours.

This paragraph raises several points:
1) You talked at people for 15 years, but dont want to listen?

I served a two year mission approximately 15 years ago, and I am more
than happy to listen. I'll even respond to genuine questions. When I
was a missionary, believe it or not, I actually encountered any number
of people that were genuinely interested in learning more about the
gospel of Jesus Christ. I also met plenty of people who were really
only interested in arguing with me either from the scriptures, if they
were religious, or from logic and science if they were not. Sometimes
these discussions were interesting, but mostly they were not. It
takes a certain amount of reverence to talk openly about different
religious beliefs without degrading into an argument, and that's never
particularly helpful.

I am not particularly interested in having a debate, and I don't
profess to have all of the answers. When push comes to shove I
believe the way that I do because I prayed about these things and
received an answer to my prayers. Yes, I realize that sounds
backwards and old-fashioned, but I honestly believe that the Lord
answers sincere prayers even in this age. Having received what I
believe to be an answer from the Almighty you'll have to excuse me if
I am not particularly impressed by your attempts to sway my beliefs.

2) You admit to having a closed mind?

I will admit that I believe that God exists. I will even testify that
I have felt his hand in my life. I am open minded enough to see that
it is possible that I am simply deluded. I don't believe that to be
the case, but I will accept that it is possible. If it is the case
then I can at least reconcile myself to the fact that my delusion
makes me happy, and it inspires me to be a better neighbor. I fail to
seem the harm in that. If I am incorrect then I will die just like
everyone else having lived a life centered around hope. If I am
correct then I will live again with my family and my loved ones.

Will you accept that perhaps there is a God, and that you simply don't
understand His motives?

If not, then don't talk to me about being close-minded.

3) You seem happy to defy the biblical teaching to witness.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast
ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their
feet, and turn again and rend you.

As I said before, I hold these beliefs sacred, and I am not
particularly interested in debating with you. If believing that God
doesn't exist makes you happy that's fine with me. I personally think
that you are missing something, but then again you probably think I am
insane. That makes us even.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't believe that being a "witness"
involves denouncing others as being wicked or foolish, or demeaning
their closely held beliefs. I believe in God. I know that he exists
and loves us all. You believe differently, but you appear to be an
honorable person. That's what really matters.

Like I said before, what you believe is far less important than how
you act.

There is hope for you yet, Jason!!

I'd like to think so.

I do appreciate that you have kept this discussion civil. I realize
that you almost certainly truly believe that you are trying to help
me. In fact, I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this topic.

Jason
.

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