Re: Following Dally's Lead...


"Charles" <charles@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:omgjh1taiia96uu7d6pkrl1ukm6asl3jl6@xxxxxxxxxx
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 10:50:27 -0400, Dally <Dally@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> >Dopey *** wrote:
> >
> >> In article <3ns2q1F32cukU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
> >> Dally <Dally@xxxxxxxxxx> writes:
> >>
> >>>Dopey *** wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>There is nothing stopping anybody
> >>>>from bettering themselves in the USA. True: One may start from a
> >>>>deficit, compared to others, but that's the way life is.
> >>>
> >>>Obviously quite a few things stop people from bettering their lives in
> >>>the USA, or else everyone would do it.
> >>
> >>
> >> Some people simply aren't motivated to improve themselves, for one
> >> reason or another. My feeling is that one of those reasons is
> >> perceived lack of need to.
> >
> >You may have a point. It must really steam you that some people are
> >content to live in the gutter with only the barest substistance
> >lifestyle. I know these people exist. They typically suffer from
> >mental illness, mental retardation, alcoholism, drug addiction or some
> >other mental defect that makes them be lazy SOBs. They're not nice
people.
> >
> >Got anyone like that in your family? Any low-functioning drunks? Any
> >mentally retarded kids? Any heroin addicts?
> >
> >When that happens, what do you do? Most people would come up with a
> >multi-pronged attack on it. Get them treatment. Let them suffer. But
> >at some level you provide humane assistance, if only for the sake of the
> >children. You open homeless shelters, staff food kitchens, provide ESL
> >classes, workforce training, drug treatment centers, mental health
> >services. This is not to ENABLE them to stay poor, this is to enable
> >them to work through the rough spot and make their way back out of it.
> >The fact that some people use it to enable them to live a pretty crappy
> >life is absolutely true. But you've still got to do it.
> >
> >
> >> After all: If somebody will feed and
> >> shelter you for nothing in return, why bother?
> >
> >Because you want more from life than day-old cheese and the same
> >impoverished life for your kids. Lots of people are on welfare just
> >when the babies are little and work their way out of it.
> >
> >>>>You want to know what keeps the poor down?
> >>>
> >>>Children born before they've completed their education?
> >>
> >>
> >> I'll reply to what I think you meant, rather than what you wrote ;).
> >
> >Thank you for that courtesy. :-)
> >
> >> That is a choice, Dally. Tell me: Why should I be forced to pay for
> >> another individual's poor choices? Maybe if we stopped paying these
> >> people to have babies, they'd stop doing it? Or at least slow down.
> >
> >I'm absolutely serious in asking you this: did you have premarital sex?
> > What stopped YOU from having a child to support before you had the
> >skills to do it?
> >
> >When I was in high school a neighbor boy murdered a girl on my cross
> >country team. Turned out she had gotten pregnant and he didn't want the
> >child.
> >
> >I'm sure your next step is to tell me that they can all murder their
> >fetuses - but that isn't as normal and reasonable an option to a lot of
> >people for perfectly respectable reasons. For example, the hormones
> >flooding a woman make her attached to the fetus. Amazingly enough, some
> >religions frown on infanticide and consider a fetus to be a child. Some
> >people have incredibly limited access to abortion services. Some people
> >don't know they're pregnant until it's too late. (We're not talking
> >about very bright people here.)
> >
> >I'm telling you: once you have sex your options get a lot more limited.
> > So. Did you have sex before you were ready to support a child? What
> >kept YOU from not reproducing? Your superior knowledge, or your sheer
luck?
> >
> >>>Children left without parental support?
> >>
> >> Eh? How does that prevent said child from getting an education and
> >> making something of his or her life?
> >
> >Many ways. Role models that show you how to study. Lack of
> >infrastructure as simple as a desk and a quiet place to do your
> >homework. Lack of ability to navigate bureaucracy involved with
> >registering for classes and applying for financial aid.
> >
> >I know a kid who was thrown out of the house by his father's new
> >girlfriend when he was 16 that never got his driver's license. He is 30
> >now and doesn't have a license, nor does he drive registered and insured
> >cars. He just missed that step.
> >
> >He's got a felony conviction behind him now - stealing car radios in
> >sufficient number to reach the right dollar amount - so he at least got
> >his G.E.D. in jail.
> >
> >This kid is bright, happy, mostly honest, just was cast adrift as a
> >child in such a way as he never got sent out on the right path. This
> >sort of throw-away kid is incredibly common, and most of them have their
> >roots in a story involving a parent's new love interest blowing them out
> >of the nest too early. (Or in the case of girls, their mother's new
> >love interest raping them. The stats on run-away girls being raped at
> >home are shocking.)
> >
> >>>Lack of an education so you can't get a good paying job?
> >>
> >> Choice.
> >
> >You don't know what you're talking about, or you're using "choice" in
> >the same way as people do when they say, "the people in NO chose to stay
> >there." People who manage to get a good education despite a ghetto
> >background are nearly heroic in their achievement. Choosing to be a
> >hero is a good thing and I'm all for it, but pretending that the ones
> >who didn't make it didn't make it by "choice" is ridiculous.
> >
> >>>Lack of childcare so you can't hold a good paying job?
> >>
> >> Choice (to have children).
> >
> >A sex drive is a basic aspect of being human. Almost everyone is
> >sexually active before they've completed their education. This is
> >another one of those false choices.
> >
> >I know some people actually DID choose to have children inadvisedly
> >rather than having them by accident. It's the welfare cycle
> >perpetuating itself because it's the only role model the girls know.
> >The way out of that is education. Teach them another model.
> >
> >
> >>>Illness that leaves you incapable of working?
> >>
> >>
> >> Valid point. In fact: Plenty of previously hard-working, tax-paying
> >> citizens are left penniless due to exactly such a situation.
> >> Ironically, much of their taxes went to providing welfare to
> >> crack-baby baby factories that never contributed one positive thing
> >> to society. Now that those (prior) contributors to society are made
> >> non-contributors through no fault of their own, who will take care of
> >> them?
> >
> >Capitalism is based on the concept that everyone will advocate
> >aggressively in their own best interests. If a worker doesn't want to
> >work for a given pay then he can walk and go work elsewhere. Employers
> >pay as little as they can get away with, employees get as much as the
> >market will bear. Everyone settles into the spot they're comfortable in.
> >
> >But... some people just can't be in that system. It's not just "those"
> >people, it's you after you're in a car accident, it's your disabled
> >child, it's your father with emphysema (that he got from a life of bad
> >habits) and it's your brother-in-law who's a mean drunk. And this week
> >it's a bunch of people on the gulf coast who just got ass-whooped by a
> >storm.
> >
> >A humane nation has a safety net to catch the people who just can't
> >manage the capitalist whirl at the moment, for whatever reason. Yes, we
> >abhor the ones who abuse it. But not everyone is abusing it - far from
> >it. Lots of people go on unemployment and then find a job. Lots of
> >people get a community college education while on welfare and then get a
> >job. Lots of people get Earned Income Credit while the kids are little
> >and they can only hold a part-time job and then are able to raise their
> >kids out of the cycle.
> >
> >And there really isn't all that much welfare for able-bodied people.
> >Social Security Disability requires that you have worked and paid into
> >the system. Almost all the assistance available for young parents
> >phases out as the children grow away. Most assistance is transitional
> >or geared to the disabled.
> >
> >>>Poor funding of inner-city schools so the education is cut-rate?
> >>
> >> And whose fault is that?
> >
> >Yours. You figure you don't need to be involved in the schools because
> >you don't have a kid there, so the only one left involved in the schools
> >are the parents who don't have a good work ethic or respect for
education.
> >
> >>>Violence that makes you scared to go outside?
> >>
> >> Choice. Communities tolerate it. They don't have to.
> >
> >You have a funny idea of what "choice" means. I thought you were
> >talking individual choice. If you're not willing to walk to the Library
> >after school in the winter (when it's dark out) and you don't feel safe
> >working a part-time job as a 7-11 clerk on week-ends... how exactly are
> >YOU going to get ahead?
> >
> >>>Lack of money to move to a better location?
> >>
> >> Why not make better the place you are?
> >
> >Sure, why not. Work to improve the school system. Set up a
> >neighborhood watch. Be a feminist in the 16th century. Rah rah rah.
> >
> >Again, are we talking "personal choice" here or is this just
> >hard-hearted hand-waving about "those people"? I thought the topic was
> >what holds you down if you're poor. The environment DOES hold you down.
> > It's one of the strikes against you. Yes, some people overcome it.
> >But it's one more thing in a long list of things to overcome.
> >
> > >>>What keeps the poor down
> >>>>is people like you, Dally.
> >>>
> >>>That was going to be my next guess.
> >>
> >> If you weren't so dammed blinkered, it would've been your first
> >> guess.
> >
> >I just left this snippet in because I find it so amusing.
> >
> >> Do you have any idea how much of my taxes go toward supporting people
> >> who have not, and likely never will, contribute nothing but creating
> >> more leeches on society and criminals?
> >
> >Yes. Do you?
> >
>
>http://www.irs.gov/app/understandingTaxes/pdf/whys/theme1/lesson1/T1L1assp_
ans.pdf
> >
> >Have you any idea how much of the Federal budget goes to providing you
> >with a safe place to live and work, access to a workplace (roads,
> >internet, secure trade), an educated population of consumers and
> >employees, access to outstanding medical care (including research) and
> >cheap access to fuel and goods?
> >
> >This is where we can talk about the benefit to you of the space program
> >if you're up for it.
> >
> >Now go look at what portion of the budget goes to social services. Are
> >you so sure you're not GETTING any of those social services? Did you
> >have subsidized student loans? A Pell grant? A HUD mortgage? In our
> >town they provide a free lunch to children all summer at a local park
> >(not the adults, just the kids.) There's a new bike path that we got
> >Federal money for, and a few years ago we got Federal money for a
> >"streetscape" program that meant we got to tear down some slums and put
> >in some greenways and improve the environment. (Wait, didn't you just
> >advocate for that above?)
> >
> >> Meanwhile, it's quite
> >> possible the promised social security net I've been paying into my
> >> entire working life will have disintegrated by the time I need it.
> >> If I were to suddenly become so ill I couldn't work anymore, my 13+
> >> year investment in my home, and all I have saved all these years,
> >> would probably be gone. Meanwhile, the roads are going to hell, the
> >> police are under-staffed, the educational system grows more pathetic
> >> almost day-by-day... the list is endless.
> >
> >Good thing you're not one of the whiners.
> >
> >> But crack-baby mommas get a free ride on my damn taxes.
> >
> >And so would your down's syndrome kid. Misfortune hits everywhere.
> >
> >> Don't you *even* *consider* whinging at me about how much better
> >> a citizen you are when I'm being forced at gun-point to support
> >> the dregs of society.
> >
> >I'm a better citizen because I don't have to be forced at gunpoint to do
> >my part. It's a representational democracy. We did this to ourselves,
> >for ourselves, because of ourselves. You are THEM. You just don't get
it.
> >
> >> Goddam liberals. The various Churches may have their evils, but at
> >> least they're not forcing me to tithe at gunpoint.
> >
> >I'm wondering just how fast you'd turn to the public teet if you needed
> >it. Pretty damn fast, is my guess.
> >
> >Your entire diatribe is the hatred spewing from lucky people who got
> >theirs. It's nothing new. It's rooted in fear, hatred,
> >small-mindedness and racism.
> >
> >Reasonable people can disagree on how best to help people. Only
> >unreasonable people think it's unnecessary to help them at all.
>
> Can there be any remaining doubts that this woman is a raving loony?
>
> Have a great weekend folks - you will know I am!! ;o)

No doubt at all in my mind (and I *have* given this issue a lot of thought)
It must be her intense athletic program that is affecting her thought
processes


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