Re: Red Bull...

"Steve Freides" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>"JMW" <jmwilliams_56@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Steve Freides wrote:
>>> "JMW" <jmwilliams_56@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> > Steve Freides wrote:
>>> >> "JMW" <jmwilliams_56@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> >> > Steve Freides wrote:
>>> >> >> "OmManiPadmeOmelet" <Omelet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> >> >> > is not as good as Green Tea Extract. :-)
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Just started using GTE again this morning and OH what a
>>> >> >> > difference,
>>> >> >> > 1 hour pre-workout!!!
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > No more Sugar Free Red Bull. It's too damned expensive
>>> >> >> > anyway........
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I take it you're *not* using the decap version of green tea
>>> >> >> extract.
>>> >> >> :)
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Do I need to explain again that caffeine is NOT the primary
>>> >> > stimulant,
>>> >> > nor even a substantial stimulant, in green tea?
>>> >>
>>> >> Yes, you do. I don't find the green tea extract I take has a
>>> >> stimulant
>>> >> effect on me at all - maybe I don't take enough of it. I also
>>> >> drink
>>> >> the
>>> >> stuff and don't find a stimulant effect from it that way, either.
>>> >> Please do explain, thanks.
>>> >
>>> > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/5ce51f783f848816?dmode=source&hl=en
>>> > (http://tinyurl.com/a7umt)
>>>
>>> Well that's Greek to me. Care to try it in lay-person English,
>>> comparing a cup of coffee with a cup of green tea and a single
>>> typical
>>> green tea extract pill (I'll gladly post the notional content of the
>>> ones I'm taking).
>>
>> OK, Steve, here's your simplification.
>>
>> The best known major stimulant drug is amphetamine. Amphetamine works
>> by inhibiting the reuptake of certain neurotransmitters, primarily
>> dopamine (DA) and norepinephrine (NE), into the neurons from which
>> they
>> originated. You've heard of SSRIs, selective serotonin reuptake
>> inhibitors, that are used to treat depression? Same thing, except
>> amphetamine acts primarily on the reuptake of DA and NE (and a little
>> bit on serotonin, too). With that reuptake inhibited, there's plenty
>> more DA and NE swimming around to act as a stimulant in the brain.
>>
>> But reuptake is not the only way the body deals with too much DA, NE,
>> and serotonin (5HTP) swimming around. Monoamine oxidase (MAO) is an
>> enzyme that metabolizes DA, NE, 5HTP, and a few other
>> neurotransmitters
>> to make sure that there's not too much swimming around loose. Another
>> class of drugs used to treat depression are MAO inhibitors, which
>> inhibit the MAO enzyme, so once again, you have more DA, NE, and 5HTP
>> swimming around. That's why so many labels warn you not to take
>> certain stimulants with MAO inhibitors, since it might be a bad idea
>> to
>> take something that resulted in more DA and NE swimming around while
>> inhibiting the ability of MAO to metabolize it. Got that so far?
>>
>> Well, MAO isn't the only enzyme that helps metabolize stray
>> neurotransmitters. Catechol O-methyltransferase (COMT) also
>> metabolizes the catecholamine neurotransmitters: DA, NE, and
>> ephinephrine. That's where the green tea comes into play.
>>
>> Tea, whether green or black, doesn't have nearly as much caffeine as
>> coffee. A cup of coffee has about 100 mg of caffeine, while a cup of
>> black tea contains only about 40 to 50 mg per cup, and green tea
>> contains only about 20 to 30 mg per cup. Green tea and black tea come
>> from the same plant, but black tea is fermented. The fermentation
>> results in higher caffeine levels but lower levels of tea catechins.
>> The most plentiful tea catechin, prized for it's antioxidant
>> properties, is (-)-epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), which I'm sure is
>> touted on your bottle of green tea extract. The best green teas, and
>> their extracts, have very low levels of caffeine and high levels of
>> EGCG.
>>
>> EGCG has been shown in several studies to have a direct inhibitory
>> effect on the enzyme COMT. By inhibiting COMT, once again, we have
>> more DA and NE swimming around. Basically, it has the same effect on
>> extracellular levels of DA and NE as amphetamine and MAO inhibitors,
>> just a different pathway, and in the long run, to a lesser extent.
>>
>> But you want to know how this compares to caffeine. OK ...
>>
>> In one study, researchers gave the subjects capsules three times per
>> day: one group got a placebo, one group got a green tea extract that
>> was standardized to 50 mg caffeine and 90 mg EGCG, and one group got
>> just 50 mg of caffeine. They then measured urinary catecholamine
>> levels for each group. Over 24 hours, DA levels for the caffeine-only
>> group were about the same as placebo, but the green tea group had 19%
>> higher levels; NE levels for the caffeine-only group were about 17%
>> over placebo, but the green tea group had levels 37% higher than
>> placebo. Even more pronounced were the daytime levels: DA for
>> caffeine-only was 6% over placebo, but green tea was 22% over placebo,
>> while for NE, caffeine-only was 20% over placebo, and green tea was
>> 38%
>> over placebo. Simply put, the EGCG in green tea is causing
>> significant
>> increases in stimulatory catecholamines, even in your decaffeinated
>> stuff.
>>
>> As to the difference between a cup of coffee, a cup of green tea, and
>> green tea extract, you can extrapolate that from what I've already
>> told
>> you. This is pretty simplified, but that's what you asked for.
>
>It's just barely simple enough for me - thanks. I will read it again
>later and try to digest (no pun intended) it all.
>
>In the meantime, one more question - I've noticed (anecdotally, of
>course) that not everyone responds the same way to caffeine. xxx amount
>seems to do more to some people than others. Does the same variation
>among individuals exist in reactions to the agents in green tea?

I would suppose so, particularly because of the physiological action
of EGCG. Personal variations in levels of DA and/or NE, variations in
the expression of dopaminergic and/or adrengeric receptors, and
introduction of exogenous substances that increase the release of DA
and/or NE will probably be amplified by the COMT inhibition of EGCG
(and to a lesser extent, other tea catechins).
.

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