Re: Why Lion hiding scrollbars by default is a Bad Thing?

Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Király <me@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
You can repeat it as often as you want; that doesn't make it true.
If it can install on a blank disk, then by definition, it's not an
upgrade install.

Tell Apple. They've sold upgrade versions of OSX for years and years
that can do that. So why are you complaining to me? *baffled*

You've got it completely backwards.

"Upgrade" versions of OS X, such as drop-in DVDs bundled with a new Mac,
can *not* install on an empty hard drive. They require the previous
version of OS X to exist on the HD before the install can proceed. That
is why they are "upgrade" versions.

Extremely wrong. I can install to a clean HD with either my 10.4 DVD
that came with a Mac mini, 10.5 drop-in DVD (that FYI was a special
edition double layer DVD of 10.5 minus iApps bundled with new Macs,
included shortly after the release of 10.5, with Macs that still came
with 10.4 pre-installed and 10.4 DVDs),

The "CPU Drop-in DVD" has been around for a long time. I'm aware of them
for 10.4, 10.5 and 10.6, and there was probably one for 10.3 as well.

Apart from the label, it is usually identical to the "Upgrade DVD" that
could be ordered from Apple via the "Mac OS X Up-to-date Programme" for
new Macs that were purchased around the time the new OS was released
which didn't include the new OS.

Both DVDs have licensing conditions which mean that they are only
allowed to be used on the Macs with which they were supplied, and are
regarded as part of the bundled software for those computers so must be
sold with the computer.


I also have a 10.5 CPU Drop-in DVD, and I've pulled it apart to some
extent to find out what it does, in comparsion to an Install DVD. You
are mistaken on its technical restrictions.

The distinction between an Upgrade DVD (or CPU Drop-in DVD) and Install
DVD in earlier versions of Mac OS X is not based on the system installed
on the target volume. It is based on there being at least one connected
volume which contains an installed system that demonstrates eligibility
for using that DVD.

In the case of the 10.5 CPU Drop-in DVD, it does an explicit check for
any mounted volume containing an installed system which is version
10.4.0 or later. As long as that test passes, it will allow you to
install 10.5 on any mounted volume. (I expect it also accepts a Time
Machine backup of a 10.5 system as demonstration of eligibility, but
didn't dig far enough to confirm that, or test it myself.)

If you were using that DVD to install 10.5 on volumes which contained no
installed system, that only worked because you must have had another
volume connected at the same time with an installed 10.4 or 10.5 system.

I haven't had enough of an opportunity to look at a 10.6 CPU Drop-in DVD
or Upgrade DVD to confirm whether it retained this behaviour of checking
for any mounted volume containing an installed 10.5 or later system. I
have seen confirmation that it doesn't require any system installed on
the target volume, but that is inconclusive as I don't know what else
the person had connected to the computer at the time.

and my 10.5 regular DVD included with a new Mac.

The install DVDs supplied with new Macs are only licensed for that
computer and they normally contain model checks which prevent them
installing on a significantly different series (e.g. iMac vs PowerBook
G4), and sometimes on different generations within the same series. An
older DVD would rarely work on a newer model (with different model
identifier) due to missing kernel/driver support for newer hardware.

I have also performed clean installs with other people's 10.3-10.6
included DVDs with new Macs.

I should know about the 10.5 drop-in DVD and included DVD with new Macs,
as I had a hell of a time with my first two 24" iMacs (how I have both
editions of 10.5 that were bundled) and early versions of 10.5,
requiring multiple clean installs to try and sort troubles I was having.

So what are you on about???

Full installers, such as those sold at the retail level, can upgrade
*certain previous versions* of OS X to the current version, or can
install onto an empty hard drive.

As can upgrade versions. The difference is upgrade versions get upitty
when an unsupported OS to upgrade from is on the HD.

Nope. They get uppity if you don't have an eligible version of Mac OS X
on any mounted volume.

The full installers will IME let you archive and install pretty much any
version of OSX I've used extensively (10.3 and up, and possibly earlier,
not that I care about anything further back), if they can't upgrade it.

So will the Upgrade versions, as long as at least one mounted drive
contains an eligible version of the system.

You seem to be saying that you will consider a Lion installer to be a
"full installer" if it will upgrade a 10.5 or 10.4 system to Lion
without having to erase the hard drive. While I agree that would be
a nice feature to have, that doesn't meet Apple's (or anyone else's
except for your) definition of a "full installer".

I'm saying I consider a full installer a full installer if Apple calls
it a full installer and it will let me install the OS to a HD no matter
what is already on there, even if it means simply overwriting the old
OS, or archiving it (as Apple provides the option to do), without having
to wipe the HD first.

By your definition there is no full installer for Snow Leopard, because
it cannot install directly to a hard drive containing a 10.2 or earlier
system, and it has no "Archive & Install" option. You have to erase the
drive first if the system currently on the target drive is too old.

For that matter, if the drive has the wrong partition scheme, you have
to completely erase it first, because all versions of Mac OS X on an
Intel Mac will refuse to install unless the target drive is partitioned
using GUID Partition Table, and similarly for PowerPC Macs requiring
Apple Partition Map.

Therefore by your definition there is no full installer for 10.4 or 10.5
either.

Your definition of a full installer is not reasonable. If you start
adding conditions like "as long as it has the right partition scheme"
then it is only a question of the degree of the technical restrictions.

The technical restrictions for the Lion installer happen to be tighter
than Snow Leopard in terms of older system versions which can be present
on the target volume.

As far as I know, a bootable copy of the Lion installer will let you
install Lion without any connected volume containing an installed copy
of Lion or Snow Leopard. It doesn't validate the installation by
confirming you have at least the previous major version. By that
definition (which is the same as 10.5 or earlier), Lion is a full
installer.

It is just less flexible than earlier major versions of Mac OS X.

You seems to think a full installer is whatever you can use to get the
OS onto a HD, no matter the hassle. Well, I call the Lion and other
upgrade installers limited, and certainly not the definition of full
installer that I know.

Also I'd be careful telling people they're buying a fully functional
installer for Lion, in case you're being that foolish. I doubt they'll
thank you if they discover the limitations while trying to use it as
they would a full installer.

The only "limitation" is The fact that it doesn't upgrade 10.4 or 10.5
to 10.7. But it does install a full version of 10.7, and is thus a full
installer.

The 10.5 retail DVD could not upgrade a 10.0 system. An erase and
install was required. Does that make the 10.5 DVD anything less than a
"full installer"?

No, why would you think that? Use some _sense_ man. Is that what you and
the others think? Try booting up your OSX install DVD. You'll see there
are other options besides upgrade, e.g. archive and install that allow
one to install your OS to a HD without erasing it first, and without
losing data (if archive is chosen) if the version of OSX is too old to
be updated in place.

There is no Archive & Install option for 10.6 (or later).

Naturally some restoration will still be necessary after an archive and
install to copy across files from the older system's user folders, to
the new ones. But that generally takes less time than a full nuke, pave,
install of new OS, and restoration of files and prefs from backups. It
also allows one to be pickier than automated solutions like migration
assistant. Maybe I only want to copy across my document and media
folders, plus only a couple app prefs. Not everything. It's good to get
as clean a start with a new OS as possible.

Lion's Migration Assistant and Setup Assistant appear to offer a finer
degree of folder selection than earlier versions. I haven't had a
detailed look yet.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic - suffice to say you have some very funny
ideas about what I think. Why on Earth would I expect 10.5 to upgrade
ancient 10.0 and why would I think that failure to update a very old OS
makes an installer not a full version? Hello! There are other install
options besides erase and update! Hellloooo! Hellllooooo?

Except when there are no such other options.

--
David Empson
dempson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
.

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