Re: This Mac Pro is a real deal!
- From: Tim Okergit <to@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 16:21:35 -0400
On 09/22/2010 09:07 AM, Lewis wrote:
In message <i7bk6q$bo2$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Tim Okergit
<to@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 09/21/2010 05:45 AM, Lewis wrote:In message <i79gh6$1qn$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Tim Okergit
<to@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
http://www.apple.com/macpro/specs.html
OK, Mac Pro.
================================
SAPPHIRE 100289L Radeon HD 5670 (Redwood) 1GB 128-bit DDR5 PCI Express
2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card w/ATI Eyefinity
$100
The iMac comes with ATI Radeon HD 5670 512MB GDDR3 SDRAM. I give you
500 MB free.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102869&cm_re=ATI_Radeon_1GB-_-14-102-869-_-Product
=================================
iMac?
Mac Pro comes with a 5770 with 1GB of DDR5 Ram. These cards run around
$225.
Really, I'm sorry. I see they've really put a monster video card on
this Pro computer. You don't mind if I check the price?
SAPPHIRE 100283-3L Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0
x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102873
$140.
Nah, that's the crappy Saphire. The Good one is $200.
I don't have the part number on me at the moment, but that's not it.
Shit! I'll have to add $15 to the total. If you don't agree, give the
precise specs on the Mac Pro card providing the URL and compare with a
model that you find equivalent. Throwing any price out of the blue is
too easy.
The PRECISE specs on the MacPro card is that it costs $250 and has two
mDP ports, one HDMI, and one DVI dual link. No other 5770 matches those
specs, but it's a Mac EFI card only and won't work in your PC. The
comperable cards with one mDP and two DVIs run about $200 or so. I saw
one listed for $180, but it was out of stock.
Here's your card that will get you 2560×1600 -- Wow! -- through mDP ports:
PowerColor AX5770 1GBD5-5D Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Eyefinity 5 Edition Video Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131358
$220
Unfortunately, this $65 card will get you just the same definition:
NVIDIA GeForce 9400GT
http://usa.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=A0wIuw9U1J0HQ5RZ
DVI Max Resolution 2560 x 1600
With IGB Memory it's worth $65
See: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130390
Unfortuanately, DVI strips you of all the advantages of mDP, which, accordding to Wikipedia are:
[T]he removal of the DVI port from the MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro in favor of Mini DisplayPort, and the use of Mini DisplayPort as the video connector for the new 24-inch Cinema Display, may complicate compatibility:
* Mini DisplayPort's HDCP extension disables playback of certain DRM-encrypted content on any display not designed for it. This includes some content from the iTunes Store[17] which has no such restrictions if played on a Mac without Mini DisplayPort.[18][19]
* Apple's Dual-Link DVI or VGA adapters are relatively large and expensive compared to past adapters, and customers have reported issues with the new adapters, such as being unable to connect to an external display. Monitors connected to a Mini DisplayPort via these adaptors may have resolution issues or not "wake up" from sleep.[20][21][22] (However, any one experiencing these problems with Apple's DVI adaptors should check the cable used for the DVI connection. It must be a Dual-Link type, not a standard DVI cable.)
* Mini DisplayPort adapters do not exist for the older component video, S-Video, or composite video connectors. Connectivity can be achieved by converting the Mini DisplayPort digital signal first to VGA, DVI, or HDMI, then to the appropriate signal type.
* While the DisplayPort specification is capable of supporting digital audio, the older 2009 line of MacBooks and MacBook Pros are unable to provide an audio signal through the Mini DisplayPort, and only do so over USB, Firewire, or the audio line out port instead (the April 2010 line of MacBook Pro, however, supports this[15]). This can present a problem to users who intend to connect their computers to HDTVs using a Mini DisplayPort to HDMI adapter. To work around this issue, some third-party manufacturers have created adapters that plug into both the Mini DisplayPort (for video) and a USB port (for audio) or Mini DisplayPort (for video), a USB port (for power) and the optical out (for audio); either option terminating with a single female HDMI connector, thus allowing both video and audio to be channeled over the one HDMI cable.[23]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_Display_Port
GIGABIT!!! Are you sure? As I said earlier, I have a ten years old $10
D-Link Ethernet card on my old in-perfect-working-order PC in a
closet. Nowadays it's integrated in the mobo. Doesn't cost a cent
extra, even in my $79.99 mobo.
DUAL gigabit, you illiterate. That is, it has two gigabit Ethernet
ports. You know, one for your fixed IP connection to the world and one
to connect to your LAN. You know, because this is a machine intended to
be used as a SERVER.
DUAL!!!! Wow! Shit, I wonder how some people manage to do networking with Linux... Maybe they buy another card at $15? Maybe they're more serious and they buy a $60 router:
<http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=145&name=Wireless-Routers>
But we're over spec-ing here. Let's see instead what the specs of the mobo I suggested are LAN-wise:
LAN
1. 2 x RTL8111E chip (10/100/1000 Mbit)
2. Support for Teaming
3. Support Smart Dual LAN
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3450#sp
Err... isn't 1000 Mbit 1 Gbit? Seems we've got the same, don't we.
4xFirewire 800.
Now you've got a point! The first card Google provides is
SIIG FireWire 800 3-Port PCI Model NN-830012-S2
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16800998060
$75 fricken dollars! Unfortunately, the board I suggested offers USB3,
which is faster than Firewire. Not a cent more here.
And USB3 connects to the thousands of Firewire devices out there? or to
the handful of USB3 devices?
Firewire has been on the market longer, so it's normal that there are more things on the market for it. But, when you buy a new PC, you're normally looking forward to what's going to be on the market. Meanwhile you can use USB2, even on USB3 ports.
Beside, Firewire has been dropped on MacBooks, save the Pros. This not so standard standard is about to be dropped.
> TOSLINK in and out,
On my $79 mobo, I have Toslink (optical) out. You have it with the
board I suggested too:
In AND OUT. Out is Easy, In is harder.
Yes, IN is always harder. It's a thing Maccies know well and, with Jobs at the helm, they sure take it easy.
I included $150 this and it's apparently worth $40 (first on the
Google list):
TRENDnet TEW-623PI IEEE 802.11b/g, IEEE 802.11n (draft) 32-Bit PCI
Rev. 2.1/2.2/2.3 Wireless N-Draft Adapter Up to 300Mbps Wireless Data
Rates 64/128-bit WEP (Hex & ASCII), WPA/WPA2, WPA-PSK/WPA2-PSK
Do you have any slots left on this machine? You seem to have added a lot
of stuff, where's it all go?
Oups, I forgot software, your «And I get OS X». OS X is free software
that Jobs sold to Apple for something like $560 millions.
No, OS X is not free software and has never been free software. Darwin
is free. OS X is rather a lot more than that.
It's based on FreeBSD and the Mach Kernel, an antiquated thingy that's been abandoned even by its early developers. This has been discussed here at lenght. But I did write "that Jobs sold to Apple for something like $560 millions", didn't I? So, of course, Apple charges you for it, mainly by selling you crappy-expensive hardware.
But feel free to go by your white box machine and believe that you saved
a great deal of money and got a better computer. You did save money,
buying parts for a computer is always going to be cheaper. the question
is, is it really better?
I don't think so. I've had my Mac Pro just about 5 years and except for
my 8800 replacement video card dying, it's given me no trouble at all
and has run 24/7 since I bought it.
Well, as I often said I have an old Celeron 800 based system that I built with a few parts of my 486 system and it worked for 7 years. And it's still working. But my original plan in rebuilding this computer was to keep it for 3 years. After 7, I thought it was time for a change. The only trouble I had is that I once had to clean a connection on the wire from the power button to the mobo.
What's your point?
It's also so quiet in my room that I cannot hear it at all. I can hear
the drives seek sometimes, and the spin-up of a DVD is quite noticeable,
but the machine itself is silent.
Ah, man, now you've got something! You should hear the noise coming out of this Sonata III! Man, it's like if you had a diesel beside you.
I'm considering replacing it with one of the new $3500 8 core machines,
but I probably won't. This machine is just fine for my use and still
feels like a new machine. Probably I will buy a couple of 5160's to
stick in it instead, moving me up to 4 cores at 3.0GHz and giving me a
significant gain over my 4 cores at 2.0GHz. Putting quad cores in for 8
cores total is tempting, but I don't want to spend $450-500 on two chips
when I can get the dual cores for <$200.
And if you don't understand why the Xeon chips are better -- well, I'm
sure you don't, but that's fine. It's a better chip for servers than the
core 2 duo.
Absolutely, there's no choice. Either it's a Core 2 duo or a Xeon. That's why most servers in the world run on Xeons... or do they?
Here a little exemple of an Opteron at... $230, $107 less than your Xeon:
Opteron 4180
<http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819105275>
It's 2.6 instead of 2.8 GHz... but it has 6 cores instead of 4. Since it seems you like cache:
L2 Cache
6 x 512KB
L3 Cache
6MB
Of course, though AMD never mentions it in the specs, all the 4100 series supports ECC. Proof:
"This list contains DDR3 registered DIMMs and ECC unbuffered DIMMs that have been evaluated by AMD and have shown reliable operation on the AMD internal reference platform with the AMD OpteronTM 4100 Series Processor."
<http://support.amd.com/us/Documents/Opteron%204100%20DDR3%20DIMM.pdf>
It's not a feature, it's not even worth mentioning.
Now, I have enough doing all the comparing work with you throwing anything at me. This time, you might want to do the comparison beyond the basic specs that certain prove the cheaper AMD processor to be at a huge advantage.
I do understand that, as people often contend here, AMD processors are real crap. There's absolutely no doubt that an AMD CPU would fail within 3 days.
But my standards are lower. I tell myself, if Opteron is OK for IBM's Roadrunner:
Computer: BladeCenter QS22/LS21 Cluster, PowerXCell 8i 3.2 Ghz / *Opteron* DC 1.8 GHz, Voltaire Infiniband
http://www.top500.org/system/9485
it's OK for me too.
So let's sum up once again, adding $80 for your dear PowerColor AX5770, though I wouldn't think the Mac Pro supports CrossFireX, like this card does:
CPU $337 +
Case $120 +
Disk $80 +
Memory $80 +
Video $220 +
Blutooth etc. $70 +
Motherboard $280
Mouse + Keyb. $120 +
Card reader $16
Total, no monitor or Bluray included this time for a more even comparison:
$1323
We're pretty close to half the price. Mount this system more wisely around an Opteron, you will get better performance for less than half the price. So...
Listen, Dummy. Don't write to me anymore. You're just a loss of time.
.
- References:
- This Mac Pro is a real deal!
- From: Tim Okergit
- Re: This Mac Pro is a real deal!
- From: Tim Okergit
- This Mac Pro is a real deal!
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