Re: Why has the Metrowerks sign been taken down?

In article <1120039980.568386.169140@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
larry@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
> > This just isn't true. Microsoft Internet Explorer is still by far the
> > dominant Web browser,
>
> Not on the Mac. That would be Safari.

Like IE on Windows, Safari comes with the system. What do you expect?

> 81.9% of visitors to our web site
> are using a Mac, 14.1% are using Windows, and the rest are using
> something else or listed as unknown. 58% are using Safari, 19.9% are
> using IE (probably a lot of the Windows users), and 17.7% are using
> Firefox, which is pretty high for an open source application IMO, but
> those may be more Windows people. Only 0.8% are using Camino.
>
> > yet use of Firefox is steadily growing. On the Mac
> > side, the related Camino has received a lot of praise for its well
> > designed user interface.
>
> Okay, I spoke too unilaterally. Widespread adoption is rarely the goal
> of open source software and only a tiny percentage of open source
> applications actually achieve any significant level of adoption on the
> Mac. Camino's <1% doesn't qualify. ;-)

I believe Camino had a much bigger installed base before Safari was
introduced. In fact, Camino's lead developer was contemplating giving up
after he heard about Safari. Personally, I'm glad he didn't, since
choice is almost always a good thing for users.

Anyway, I mentioned Camino because it is widely acknowledged to have an
excellent, Mac-like user interface, which, you were saying, open-source
software never had.

> In any case, I'm making general statements about open source software.
> The fact that there are some very rare exceptions doesn't really
> invalidate my points.

Your points are well taken, but they do little to support your assertion
that open-sourcing Apple's development tools would be a bad idea. I
cannot seriously entertain the notion that an open-source Xcode would be
used by few, would have a terrible UI and would have inadequate support.

> >> - Part of the problem with wide adoption may be the lack of support. CW
> >> has historically had MWRon and e-mail support. Xcode has the xcode list
> >> at Apple. Who's going to support the open source version? Open source
> >> software has always struck me as leaving you on your own much more than
> >> products like CW and Xcode, where the developers have a vested interest
> >> in seeing the product widely adopted.
> >
> > Support is very important, but I see no reason to think that an
> > open-source Xcode would get worse support than the current one. The
> > open-source Fink, for instance, is outstandingly well supported, in my
> > opinion.
> > <http://fink.sourceforge.net/>

<Fink stuff snipped for brevity>

> How many non-geeks do you expect to use software described this way?
> You just don't describe end-user software this way if you want adoption
> among mainstream users. This is software by geeks for geeks.
>
> Understand that I'm not saying open source software can't have a good
> interface or good support. But in practice it's typically software by
> geeks for geeks to one extent or another, and geeks care less about
> interface issues and support.

You miss the point rather badly here. Xcode is also software by geeks
for geeks. A porting system like Fink requires an awful lot of support -
even the geekiest of us need to have our hand held from time to time.
(Personally, I'm too geeky to use Fink or DarwinPorts in the accepted
manner, but that's another story.)

> > I wish I could recall exactly and give you a link. The origin is Philip
> > Schiller, Avadis Tevanian or someone of equal authority. However, I can
> > quote John Siracusa as a fairly reliable secondary source:
> >
> >> It also draws a line in the sand, vowing to maintain API stability from
> >> this
> >> point on.
>
> Of course, what is he really saying here? That the behavior of APIs
> will stop changing out from under you? Wow, what an impressive feature,
> and it's only taken them five years to give it to us. The whole idea of
> APIs changing behavior from one release of the OS to another is just
> insane to me and says that Mac OS X was half-baked when it was
> initially released. Now, it's done baking and they're finally taking it
> out of the oven. LOL

This is a developer's perspective. From a user's point of view, Mac OS X
has been usable for some time now.

Actually, much the same could be said of Sun's Solaris when it switched
from being BSD-based (SunOS 4 or Solaris 1) to being System V based
(SunOS 5 or Solaris 2). When you change the foundations of an OS, it
takes a long time to stabilise.


Alwyn
.

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