Re: Apple and 64 bit apps - the latest in this series



"Snit" <usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:C4F02E28.D6499%usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Daniel Johnson" <danieljohnson2@xxxxxxxxxxx> stated in post
8_WdnZ5Km_baRVfVnZ2dnUVZ_tLinZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on 9/12/08 1:59 PM:

That is a good point; you'd think that if they got consistency religion,
iTunes 8 would demonstrates this. But it does not appear to do so.

As I said, I think they have the iTunes UI the way they do to ease
development on two platforms - though it does not seem like it would be hard
to say "use system scroll bars" and the like... so maybe not. Maybe they
have it so that Windows folks can get a Mac-ish experience and then feel
comfortable using iTunes on the Mac... but then why not just make it more
standard Mac-like? I admit, I do not get why it is different...

Well, Apple has made many of its Windows programs not "look and feel" like Windows, but the results are pretty consistently dreadful. If anything, this may keep people from trying the Mac: they assume it's just as a bad.

With that said - it is not *that* different on OS X. The scroll bars look
different for no real reason but act the same (even down to *not* showing
you when you have clicked them... why, Apple, why did you remove that when
you moved to OS X?)

I never noticed that. So... um... any other OS X flaws you'd like to share with me? :D

Other than that it has a side bar seen in many OS X programs (iTunes was one
of the first to have it, but it now has become common) and the same style of
title bar / tool bar "unified" theme... the same search style,

I note that in these cases, the consistency came about because Mac OS X conformed to what iTunes was already doing.

same hot keys
and same preferences (though Apple is transitioning to a new style and
iTunes still has the old - the styles are visually a bit different but act
the same way).

I don't know what you mean there. iTunes uses a hybrid dialog; icons at the top like a NeXT preferences window, but with OK/Cancel buttons at the button, which is like a normal dialog. Changes take effect when you click OK, and you can discard them with Cancel.

Contrast Safari, which has NeXT approach: no buttons. Changes take immediate effect, and you close the window with its close box. It's like an inspector that way.

They corner curves of the window now even match the rest of
OS X - something I believe was different in the past.

Yeah; but that's because OS X adopted what was, as of Leopard, the currency appearance of iTunes. It may not last: iTunes has been changed many times before.

[snip]
It's rather bizarre! I'm able to reproduce this on Vista by setting the
XP-compatibility option on it. Normally it uses a standard Vista save dialog.

I don't understand what MS thinks they are doing. If they are trying to make
XP look like Vista, I don't think they've managed it.

Though a lot of programs on XP now have the close/minimize/maximize widgets
that more closely match Vista. Not a big deal - but it can lead to some
small problems (likely they are close enough where the problems would be
small... I have not done *any* studies or even close observations about it).

I do understand why some programs need to play games with those widgets these days: They use Aero! Glass!, and they put stuff up into the title bar area. Office Word does this with its Orb, and Google Chrome does it with its tabs. That's fine on Vista, but when you don't have the glass, the only way to get the same effect is with a custom title bar. So they do that, and wind up aping the standard window widgets in the bargain.

OTOH, some programs use custom title bars just for the hell of it. The Windows Live Whatever suite of programs all seems to ape Vista's title bars on XP, but there's no obvious reason why they should. They don't do anything interesting with the glass.

Interestingly, the actual programs that ship with Vista don't do this; they extend the glass area, but leave the title bar alone. This can look a little odd in some cases- Explorer winds up with about 30 pixels of unused glass at the top because it *doesn't* put the breadcrumbs bar up there. But it means it also works with the standard title bar.

[snip]
Would have to change the system
one to see, I suppose.

What do you mean by "change the system one"?

Modify the system one and see if the Word one changes...

I expect it would, provided you changed it in the right way.

Try TweakUI.

I do not think this program actually changes the standard dialogs; it is just accessing registry keys to manipulate options already there. Someone could write a completely custom standard dialog, and still obey those options.

[snip]
The new ones have a print preview and a "collapse/expand" widget and more
room for program specific "stuff"... the buttons at the bottom have been
changed, etc.

That seems like quite a significant upgrade, this time. Do old apps continue
to get the old print dialog sometimes?

Not that I have seen... and not that I would expect. Let me check some
software that I have not undated in a while (if you want you can get some
coffee or something while you wait... )

[snip- waiting]

A few lack the preview area... but all seem to have the collapse/expand
widget. I suspect that they are using the new one *but* there is a great
deal of flexibility where programs can use just the basics and completely
redefine the rest.

Essentially any program that does this is going to break, unless Apple keeps the old version of the dialog around for that purpose.

Mind, I wouldn't be shocked if Apple didn't worry about this, and you had to upgrade your apps to fix broken print dialogs.

Most programs, though, get the preview area for
"free"... they were designed before Apple implemented it and still have it.
Those that do not have the "Preview" button (which you also get when you
collapse the dialog).

Well, I believe they have had print preview in there for a long time; they are just changing the UI that exposes it, are they not? The Cocoa API has always required you to provide a print view 'up front', before the dialog appears.

I did find some (NeoOffice, Dreamweaver and Graphic
Converter) which had a somewhat smaller preview area but still got the
"Preview" button. Odd... not sure why that would be. Overall, though, they
were substantially similar to the "standard" dialogs (though ideally they
would be the same). Wonder if it has something to do with Carbon vs. Cocoa?

It might, I suppose. But so far as I can see, a Carbon app's print dialog should not have the inline preview area: there's no way to supply anything to put in there!

The Carbon apps should be able to support only "Tiger style" preview: you click the preview button, the dialog closes, and Preview.app starts up. It shows the output of the print job, and the original app is done printing.

Is that what happens when you print in iTunes, say? I don't have Leopard to check this with.

I suspect it will turn out that there are 2 forms of the print dialog in Leopard- if you use PMSessionPrintDialog (Carbon) you can't get a working inline preview area, and if you use NSPrintPanel (Cocoa) you should get it.

I do not know, however, if the "no preview" dialog is just the same thing as the Tiger dialog, or something intermediate thing.

Still, this is exactly the kind of issue that leads MS to keep the old dialogs around.

[snip]
They expose the properties of elements of your data; they are just different
UI techniques to do this.

Consistency would indicate that both use the same approach, like with property
sheets in Windows.

Get Info is more about *getting* info... the Inspector is more about
altering it... though there is overlap.

iTunes uses the "Get Info" style to edit data. I can't think of any use of that thing that does not; even the old OS 9 Get Info windows in the Finder did edit stuff- comments, permissions, that sort of thing.

To really blow your mind, though, the Finder has both an Inspector and a Get
Info function... neither one is like the ones in iTunes and Pages.

Oooo! Nifty! Are you going to do another 'compare-and-contrast' web-page about Windows property sheets versus OS X... thingies?

[snip]


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