Re: Steve Carroll does not know the difference between saving and quitting.

"Wally" <Wally@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> stated in post
C43D8101.1BC9E%Wally@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on 4/29/08 10:51 AM:




On 30/4/08 12:10 AM, in article C43C9669.B6047%usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
"Snit" <usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Wally" <Wally@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> stated in post
C43D5640.1BC75%Wally@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on 4/29/08 7:48 AM:




On 29/4/08 2:24 AM, in article C43B6467.B5D78%usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
"Snit" <usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Wally" <Wally@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> stated in post
C43C1CDA.1BBC9%Wally@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on 4/28/08 9:31 AM:

...

When you press the red close button (or otherwise close) the last window
of
a program there is no GUI indicator to tell the user if the program will
quit or not.

Why should there be?

It will close the app if it is unable to be used any further with that
window closed, or in an app where it can be used for additional work it
won't!

Most apps cannot be used with no window open... Photoshop for example and
yet it does not quit.

And nor should it Snit!

I could have multiple images sitting on multiple clipboards just waiting to
be used in Photoshop at my leisure on either one or many different projects,
so why would I want Photoshop to quit between closing the last of the files
that I copied from and opening the first of the projects? ... Should I have
to open a project *before* closing the last window that I copied from Snit
just to stop Photoshop from quitting? ... Of course not!

Nor does iCal or Cyberduck or Safari or Firefox or
Dreamweaver or ... well, on and on and on.

But they are all still usable?...no?

"It will close the app if it is unable to be used any further with that
window closed, or in an app where it can be used for additional work it
won't!"-Wally

All perfectly predictable behavior Snit, no further dialog boxes needed!

This creates a situation where there is unpredictability.

It will close the app if it is unable to be used any further with that
particular window closed, or in an app where it can be used for additional
work it won't!

That is completely predictable!

Already been established you are incorrect.

Established? ... By whom? You? The person that seems to consider an app no
longer usable simply because at any one moment in time it doesn't have a
window active?.... LOL!

I believe it would be better if there was some GUI indicator...

Where is the need considering that the name of the app will remain shown
after the act of closing a window has taken place if the app has not quit?

What you are "considering" is something that happens *after* you press the
red button...

You are wrong Snit what I was "considering" was something that was occurring
*all* the time that the app was active!

Read what you wrote Snit and what it was in response to, you are clearly
suggesting that the name of the app appearing "is something that happens
*after* you press the red button..." please put a little more thought into
what you are trying to get across!

not before. It does not help with bettering predictability.

Close a window the app stays active if still usable until the *user* decides
that it is no longer needed! .... How more predictable can it get?


I for one do not need to be told what I can plainly see Snit, why are you
advocating such duplication of user alerts?

You cannot see what has not yet happened.

You're rambling Snit! In my example I would plainly see that the app was
active even though all windows were closed I simply would not need "some GUI
indicator..." that you are advocating to see the obvious!

...

exactly what
is not the point but to have a dialog that tells you *after* you press
the
red button does not solve the problem well at all and is not a part of
what
*I* have suggested.

As there is already a clear indication whether an app has quit after a
window has been closed Snit .... there simply is no problem to solve!

I am talking about knowing *before* you press the button.

What!!! You want the app... Photoshop for example to be able to tell that
the user was about to press the red close button?

How would you suggest it do that?... Perhaps another dialog box asking if
the user has any intention of closing the window in the near future and if
the user answers in the affirmative yet another dialog box could offer an
array of approximate time periods when this may occur!

Oh - and in case you missed it, yeah, I was mocking.... Well you get the
picture!

You offered Photoshop as an example Snit, how many people would you consider
would need "some GUI indicator..." to tell them that Photoshop *will not*
quit if they closed the last window that was active?

You are talking about knowing *after* you press the button.

How could a dialog be presented to the user in anticipation of him/her
closing a window Snit? You're being absurd, of course it would have to occur
after!

The words "before" and "after" are not synonymous.

Of course, for the unobservant or inexperienced or simply not-too-bright
user they do not even know some programs quit and some do not...

I will for the moment assume that all the people that you list above have
sight and can at least read Snit therefore can avail themselves of the
indicators that are at present built into OS X.

And yet Steve Carroll knew of only one such program.

Or did he merely cite one Snit?

or can only think of one application.

As an example only one is needed!

As an example? Again you are going off topic.

Not at all... Why did Steve mention this *one* app at all if not as an
example?

Oh - in case you miss it, yeah, I am mocking Steve's ignorance with that
last
statement.

Which is an indictment of you rather than he Snit!

Gee, your opinion on that will eat me up... especially so soon after you
and
Steve Carroll and Tim Adams and Alan Baker and Steve Mackay and Tim Adams
have all been absolutely proved to lie to defend each other.

"Again you are going off topic."-Snit

You just can't help being a hypocrite can you Snit even on topics computer
related?

Poor abused Stevie.. he is just
such a nice guy for me to pick on, eh?

Eh? Indeed!




You do have the gift of gab... yet you did not define what you mean be a
program being usable after its last window is closed.

You need that defined for you? LOL

Seems you mean it
can, gasp!, have another window opened. Well, um, yeah. But so could many
of the following if they did not quit (yet they all do):

And what you are advocating is that *prior* to those apps quitting somehow
the app would know the intension of the user is to close the window and it
would cause a dialog to spring up stating something to the effect that "if
you close that window...I'll quit"?
You never did explain how the app would know when to present that dialog to
the user *before* any attempt was made to close the window Snit!

"I am talking about knowing *before* you press the button."-Snit

Are you ever likely to explain that Snit?


ACME Reader
Airport Utility
Art Text
BannerZest
CocoaBooklet
Dictionary
DVD Player
DVD Remaster
Font Book
iPhoto
NightShift
Parallels Desktop
PDF Lab
Switch
System Preferences
That's Not a Picture
TinkerTool
Yasu

There is no consistent pattern to what will or will not quit.

No pattern? Have you considered if an app can have multiple windows it can
run without any being open, but for apps that have only one window they are
programmed to quit when that window is closed!

Whether all developers would adhere to that I don't know, but Apple seems
to!

Your bizarre
and, frankly, idiotic idea of having a dialog pop up to tell you what *will*
happen when you press the red button is, well, typically idiotic of you.

If a dialog were needed and I do not believe that it is it would make
perfect sense to have it appear *after* an attempt has been made to complete
an action that would cause the app to quit!
Just as a save dialog appears *after* an attempt to close a document!

Your idea that a dialog should appear *before* such an action is farcical in
the extreme!

"I am talking about knowing *before* you press the button."-Snit

And you keep talking about Steve Carroll using System Preferences as merely
an example of a program that quits when *clearly* that is the only program
he knew of (or claimed to, anyway):

Therefore it *was* an example of the app that Steve knew of that acted in
such a manner, the fact that it may have at the time been the only one that
came to mind is immaterial!
Had I been asked for an example I would not have thought of the system
preferences, iPhoto and DVD Player were the ones that came to mind for me!


Steve Carroll
The only Mac app that I know of that quits when you close the
window is the System Prefs.

Of course that was better than Sandman who did not even know the System
Preferences existed:

Sandman:
I see the Safari preferences to be a form of control panel,
especially given the fact that you don't have anything else
called "control panel" in OSX (it's typical windows
terminology).

The System Preferences, of course, would be what anyone knowledgeable about
OS X would "see" as a "form of control panel".


On and on you go, Wally... the repetition gets tiresome.

1) Yes, I want to know what *you* mean when you talk about a program
being usable after its last window is closed. For some it is
pretty clear, say iTunes (it continues to play music) but for
others they do not do anything of value when they have no window
open (for example Photoshop).

2) You even outright lie and claim your dialog creation was *mine*:
-----
Your idea that a dialog should appear *before* such an action
is farcical in the extreme!
-----
Being that I had no such "idea" you are simply lying. You also
talked about the need for some sort of ability to predict what
the user will do. I never suggested any such thing.

3) You claim:
-----
Have you considered if an app can have multiple windows it
can run without any being open, but for apps that have only
one window they are programmed to quit when that window is
closed! Whether all developers would adhere to that I don't
know, but Apple seems to!
-----
But that clearly does not fit the data. Look at iCal. Only
one window... yet it does not quit. Same with Address Book.
And GarageBand. And iMovie (but not iMovie HD!) On and on.
You clearly are not even close to being correct.

--
It usually takes me more than three weeks to prepare a good impromptu
speech. -- Mark Twain

.