Re: the God that never was

In article <C3C4A143.A4EB1%CSMA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Snit <CSMA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"hasta la vista" <nospam@xxxxxxxxxx> stated in post
nospam-E2368A.21063628012008@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx on 1/28/08 8:06 PM:

In article <C3BF9DE5.A4349%CSMA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Snit <CSMA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

* Heb. 11:17 - Abraham had only one son. -

Isaac was the only son born to Abraham and his wife Sarah - Ishmael,
Abraham-s other son, was born of Sarah's handmaiden, Hagar.

Not according to the Bible:

11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and
he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

This is referring to his legitimate son Isaac, with his wife Sarah, not
his illegitimate son, Ishmael, born from the womb of Hagar, his wife's
handmaiden.

Genesis 16 1 Now Sarai Abram' wife bare him no children: and she had an
handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. 2 And Sarai said unto
Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray
thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her.
And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. 3 And Sarai Abram' wife took
Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land
of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. 4 And he
went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had
conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. 5 And Sarai said unto
Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and
when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the
LORD judge between me and thee. 6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold,
thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai
dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face. 7 And the angel of the
LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain
in the way to Shur. 8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai' maid, whence camest
thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my
mistress Sarai. 9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to
thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. 10 And the angel of
the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it
shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel of the LORD said
unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt
call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every
man' hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his
brethren. 13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her,
Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that
seeth me? 14 Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is
between Kadesh and Bered. 15 And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram
called his son' name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. 16 And Abram was
fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.

Ishmael became the father of the Arab nations, although they claim
Abraham, just as the Jews do.

Concerning Isaac -

Genesis

21 1 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto
Sarah as he had spoken. 2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son
in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. 3 And
Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah
bare to him, Isaac. 4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight
days old, as God had commanded him. 5 And Abraham was an hundred years
old, when his son Isaac was born unto him. 6 And Sarah said, God hath
made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me. 7 And she
said, Who would have said unto Abraham, that Sarah should have given
children suck? for I have born him a son in his old age. 8 And the
child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day
that Isaac was weaned.


notice that God changes the name of Abram to Abraham and Sarai to Sarah
after the birth of Isaac. This is the beginning of the Jewish nation.
Genesis

17 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to
Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be
thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and
will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God
talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee,
and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name
any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of
many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding
fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of
thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy
seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be
a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto
thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger,
all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be
their God. 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant
therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This
is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed
after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye
shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of
the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall
be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that
is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not
of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought
with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in
your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man
child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be
cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. 15 And God said
unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai,
but Sarah shall her name be . 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a
son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of
nations; kings of people shall be of her. 17 Then Abraham fell upon his
face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him
that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old,
bear? 18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before
thee! 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and
thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with
him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as
for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will
make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes
shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant
will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this
set time in the next year. 22 And he left off talking with him, and God
went up from Abraham. 23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that
were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every
male among the men of Abraham' house; and circumcised the flesh of their
foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. 24 And Abraham
was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of
his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he
was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 In the selfsame day
was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. 27 And all the men of his
house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were
circumcised with him.


Should I believe you or the Bible on this?
Believe the Bible - as you prayerfully and thoroughly read it and
understand it. If you don't approach it with reverance and a true
desire to learn and grow in the knowledge of God, why bother reading it
at all?



* Gal. 4:22 - Abraham had two sons.


* Gen 25:1 - Keturah was Abraham's wife
Consider the fact that different men named Abraham are being spoken of
in these verses. You have even missed the named of the book - there is
a I Chron and a II Chron.

* Chron 1:31 - Keturah was Abraham's concubine

* John 1:18, Tim. 6:16, John 4:24 - no man has seen God
In the new Testament verses you name here, no man in the new testament
days had seen God, only the son, Jesus, who revealed the father through
his words and acts.

* Exod: 24:9, 10, Exod 33:22,23, Amos 9:1, Gen 26:2, John 14:9 - People
have
seen God.
In the old Testament, Moses spoke with God and saw His fiery presence,
Abraham spoke and saw three angels who spoke to him as God and were the
Father, son and Holy Ghost - the Holy Trinity.

* Gen 2:16 - on the day one eats from the tree of knowledge one will die
This is speaking about spiritual death.

Nowhere does it say that. Did you make that up? Who did?

This is something which comes from prayerful study, not only of the
Bible, but lexicons from the original languages and commentaries which
clarify the meaning. The English versions are not the originals - OT
was Aramaic and NT was Greek - in order to get exact meanings, you have
to at least be able to compare the translations with the original
languages. You obviously have no desire to learn the true meaning, just
to criticize.
.

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