Re: Microsoft is in deep trouble and now it is going to die


"KDT" <scarface_74@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1177357969.118940.301850@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Apr 23, 12:51 pm, "John Slade" <hhitma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"KDT" <scarface...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
Lets see where to start...

1. Each XBox is sold at a lost, the original poster said that the
video game industry was "highly profitable" for Microsoft.

2. The Playstation *2* is still outselling the XBox 360.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/12/business/game.php

The Playstation 2 is last generation. I was talking about this
generation.

You brought up XBox's 24 million sold...

I didn't compare the original Xbox sales to the newer consoles from Sony
and Nintendo.

3. The WII is currently outselling the XBox 360
http://www.newsfactor.com/news/Nintendo-Wii-Outsells-Xbox-and-PS3/sto...

The actual sales figures still show that the Xbox has sold over ten
million units as of January and the Wii has sold six million as of
February.
You have to wait to see the latest figures to make this statement. The
Wii
might have sold better over a short period of time but, overal the Xbox
360
has sold more and is still selling well.

But what happens if the Nintendo WII continues to outsell the XBox
360?

They will outsell the Xbox overall. This is a very dumb question. Even
if this happens, Microsoft can sell games and make money from their consoles
and other consoles. However they currently seem to want to concentrate on
making games for the PC, Xbox 360 and Xbox. I think they could make a
shitload of money if they made games for the Playstation 2 and other
consoles.

The 360 has been on the market for over a year longer than the
WII and the WII has sold more than half as many.

Yep the Wii is popular and a great system. However sales usually slow
down. I also think that when Halo 2 comes out for the PC and Halo 3 hits the
market, it will help Microsoft to put that division back in the black.





"t is likely that the trio will continue to duke it out for market
dominance
in the coming years, adding more games and services to capture larger
pieces
of the $13 billion U.S. video game market."

You haven't a clue. That's what the Mac kooks do people. They will
put
up one month's worldwide sales against Microsofts US only sales. They
love
to skew numbers.

Right and the Zune actually has 9% of the US MP3 market as Microsoft
claimed. But when you really look at the claim it comes with a few
caveats.

What does the Zune have to do with this convesation? We were talking
about you incorrect figures of Xbox 360s sold. Oh I see, you're acting like
a child, you get proved wrong and you think bringing up the flop that is the
Zune will get you points. Well it doesn't change the fact that the Xbox 360
has sold over ten million units.


But if you want to include XBOX+XBox 360 you have to compare it to
Playstation 2 + Playstation 3 sells.

No. I said this generation of consoles. This generation includes
The
Xbox 360, Playstation 3 and the Wii. Of these three, the Xbox 360 has
sold
more units woldwide than both of the competitors combined.


No you included the 24 million XBOX's sold.

But I only compared the new console's sales with new consoles. I did not
compare the Xbox sales with Playstation 3 and Wii sales. You seem to have a
reading comprehension problem.


The Playstation 2 sold well over
100 million units by itself and is still outselling the XBOX 360.
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/03/04/playstation-2-thriving-or-failing/

You want to include the Playstation 2 because you know my figures
about
Xbox 360 sales were correct. They are selling more Xbox 360s than
Playstation 3s and Wiis combined. Current numbers show this and you have
only presented US Xbox 360 sales.

Again you are confusing past tense and present tense. They *have
sold* more units than WII, they are currently selling less than the
WII.


Well when the final sales figures come out since the January
figures, only then will the results be known. You are trying to say that
because the Wii's are selling more units now that they will surely sell more
than the Xbox 360. I'm saying I don't know if they will outsell the Xbox
360. I'm talking about the sales figures that are currently in. Those
figures show the Xbox 360 has sold more units than the Playstation 3 and Wii
combinded. That's a fact. You are talking speculation.

Now personally I think the Wii may well outsell both consoles because
it costs less and has that unique controller. But that's speculation and not
fact. We're talking facts here.


But I will take it as fact for the time of the posting. However
as the Wii drops in price, they will be sold at a loss at outlets like
Circuit City and other stores. Sales will slow down and the price will
drop,
the same goes for the Xbox 360.

No, components for the WII are much cheaper than the Xbox 360 and the
PS3. That's why the WII sells for less and still profitable.


We'll see when they cut the price to sell more units.


During the whole XBOX lifecycle. Microsoft *never* made a profit on
the XBox even after including revenue on the games.

Actually games like Halo and Halo 2 have made profits and have
offset
bigger losses. The losses are small when compared to the big picture over
time.

Wow, Microsoft is now resorting to the tactics of the failed dot
coms.....


Yea the failed dot coms like Yahoo and Google. We all see what a
disaster Google was and it used this same model. For years they operated at
a loss then they went public and moved into new areas with the revenue
gained. Now they're one of the biggest "dot coms" out there. I think only
Ebay is bigger.


There are still games being made for Xbox and they will eventually
turn big profits.
I never said that they didn't have losses,

You said that the XBox is a "moneymaking" endeavor.

It is or will be. If they sell games to Xbox owners and make money, it
is a moneymaking endeavor. Oh and it did make them a profit from game sales
in one quarter. They most likely will again when Halo 3 comes out and Halo 2
for the PC comes out next month.


I said that it
was a monemaking business. Some businesses make money over longer times.


You said it *is* (again present tense) not that it "might one day make
enough money to be profitable and make up for the $21 billion in
cumalitive losses"

There hasn't been $21 billion in cummulative losses. You're making ***
up now. Here's what the article YOU posted said...

"Well, after five years and over $21 billion invested all they've got to
show for it is $5.4 billion of cumulative operating losses,"

http://www.informationarbitrage.com/2007/04/msft_and_japan_.html

So now you're lying about your own numbers. Five billion is not that
hard to make up with massive game sell. So in effect they've made over $14
billion while spending that money. Now where did you get the numbers that
show a $21 billion dollar cumulative loss? Dummy, $21 billion is how much
they spent in that time table, not how much they lost. LOL. You'er starting
to ramble now that you've been exposed.


The playstation
*2* is still profitable for Sony.

That's because of game sales.



You might not know this, but component prices go down over time. The
PS2's component prices have decreased enough for the PS2 itself to
sell at a net profit. The original XBOX never made any money for MS.

The Playstation 2 was sold at a loss when it started out and the massive
game sales have made money. This is what Microsoft is hoping to do and it
appears to be working because they have big sellers in the game maket. They
have some big releases coming too.



I also find the numbers suspect as they do not show net profits
and
losses. I read in this article on Gamespot that Microsoft's Home and
Entertainment division made a profit. So how does that square with
your
figures?

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6117307.html?&print=1

You did notice that this article was in 2005, didn't you?

Yep and it turned a proft, you said it never turned a profit. You
were
wrong. Profits are quarter to quarter, or year to year. This shows that
the
Microsoft Home and Entertainment division did turn a profit at one time.
You
said they never turned a profit. What the author of the article tried to
do
was show that they never made a profit. That is a lie.

Wow one quarter out of the 20+ quarters that the Xbox has been for
sell. That's called a pyrrhic victory.

But you said never and you were proved wrong. End of story. So it shows
that it can turn a profit. It's a lot easier to turn a profit on $5+
billoion than $21 billion you made up.


I think this is another Mac kook attempt to skew numbers to make
Microsoft l

ook like it's loosing money like crazy.


No one ever said that Microsoft is not making money but comparing the
Xbox + XBox 360 which has lost $21 billion dollars after selling 34
million dollars "a moneymaking venture" compared to the iPod which has
sold over 100 million and been sold at a net profit from day one is
asinine.

Once again, show me where they lost $21 billion dollars. I only see
that they spent $21 billion and they lost $5.4 billion. That's from the
article YOU posted.




So I guess MS is also a Mac kook. Since their own 10-K shows that the
Entertainment division lost money.

And they made a profit too. Then they will make more profits from
video
game sales.

One quarter? But what happened to your contention that the XBox *is*
a moneymaking venture?

I already said the making of money in this industry takes time. How
long did it take the Playstation 2 to make a profit after they sold them at
a loss?





No one said that Microsoft is losing money. The discussion was about
the XBox ("Home and Entertainment Division") losing money.>
Here's another article.

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=317219

And look at the *title* of the article. "Xbox Posts $164 Million
Operating Loss"
Isn't that what I just said?

We've been over this or did you miss it. They sell the consoles at a
loss and expect to make money from game sales.

I'm sure Pets.com and Webvan.com expected to make money to....

And so did Google, Ebay and Yahoo...


But why go by what gamespot says? Look at Microsoft's 10K
http://google.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?FilingI...

Home & Entertainment
2004 - $1.337 billion loss
2005 - $.485 billion loss
2006 - 1.267 billion loss

That's over two years.

Actually that's three...

Yea and it's not $21 billion in losses is it? Where again did you get
$12 billion in losses from? What publication?


This is longer term than that. Also those
losses are small when compared to how much can be made five years down
the
road.

Can you show me one credible analyst that thinks Microsoft can make
enough from the XBox over the next five years to cover $21 Billion and
growing losses in 5 years?

$21 billion in losses? Where did you get that number again?



How long did it take the Playstation 2 to turn a profit?

Definately didn't take five years. But the Xbox *never* made money
during its *entire* lifecycle.

How long did it take?


Long term is
a lot more than a couple of years. It's longer than five years down the
road. We're talking at least ten years down the road here. That may seem
like a long time to most people but when talking about profits, it's
pretty
short. Microsoft's philosophy has made them 90% of the computer market
and
they are now leading in the current game console market.

And losing marketshare to WII....

Even if the Wii outsells the Xbox 360, it doesn't mean that Microsoft
Home and Entertainment division will not turn a profit in the long term.
They sold 24 million Xboxes and Playstation 2 sold 124 million consoles.
However when Halo 2 and other cames came out, they were able to turn a
profit in one quarter. They can do the same thing again. That's what long
term means...


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/209764_msftearns28.html?dpfrom=th

In the black means profit. You guys love to lie don't you?

1 quarter out of 20 and you're impressed by that?

Being impressed by it is irrelevant. You claimed they never made a
profit and you got proved wrong. So now you're saying that it meant noting
becase I proved you wrong.

Apple just announced it sold it's 100 Millionth iPod. Most iPod users
are Windows users. So does that make everyone who bought an iPod, a
kook?

No. But their computer division sells to the kooks who will buy
anything
Apple puts out. That's what kept them alive before the iPod came out.

So Mac buyers are kooks but iPod buyers aren't.

No. I said the people who buy everything that Apple sells because of
loyalty are kooks and that's what kept them alive before the iPod and iTunes
showed up.

How convenient.....
So who are the real kooks who kept buying PC's running MS-DOS and
Windows up until '95?

The kooks that bought Windows 95 because they felt loyalty to
Microsoft. The people who bought it because it was better that the competion
are the sane people. I bought it because it was way better than anything
else for what I wanted to use it for.



Not Nintendo. But Sony at least made up for its losses through video
game sales during the PS2 generation and now the PS2 sells at a profit
and is still the number one video game console,. Microsoft *never*
made money on the original XBox, including licenses.

I've shown that in one quarter they did make a profit. The games
are
still selling and the division will turn a profit.

Maybe, but what happens during the *next* generation when Microsoft is
still selling the consoles at a loss?

Damn, you are dense aren't you? Game sales...


Microsoft is such a big
company that the billons they loose might sime huge to a company that
makes
less than 10% of what Microsoft makes. Microsoft did not become so big by
making short term investments, they slowly build up their market share.
Microsoft was very smart, they sold thier OS to the masses and that's why
they're 90% of the market. Apple sold their OS to closed systems, it
failed,

Apple failed?

Apple claims to have superior hardware and software and yet only have 4%
or 5% of the worldwide computing market. They scrapped their OS and based it
on Unix.

You do realize they have are the 2nd most profitable
computer manufacturer in the world, as of last quarter, right?

But failed to gain any significant market share.

Even
if you take away iPod sales they are still 3rd in the world.

In making profits for the small ammount of computers they make. However
they aren't even in the top ten when it comes to computer sales. If I found
the parts to one computer laying on the ground and put them to gether and
sold the compouter for $1000, I'd be the most profitable company on Earth.


and they switched to Unix and put a GUI over it.

So which version of Unix had the MacOS API's, Quicktime, etc.?

Darwin.



Apple made real money when
they sold the iPod to the masses. Pretty soon Apple will put less and
less
into OS X and the Mac. The Mac is a PC now and it runs Windows, Apple is
preparing you for when OS X will die off or be offered to all PC users.


Right.....


Glad you agree. I just can't wait for you to show the info proving that
Microsoft's Home and Entertainment division had $21 billion in losses.

John


John


.

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