Re: Dell Computer


"Chris Clement" <chris.clement@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
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John Slade wrote:
"Chris Clement" <chris.clement@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
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John Slade wrote:
"Chris Clement" <chris.clement@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
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John Slade wrote:
<emiliano.inguscio@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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I need a trip. I have to buy a new computer and a lot of people
said
me
that Dell computers are the best. Is it true?


The "best" computer is one you have custom built to your
specifications.
Normally you would have gone to a small computer maker for this.
But
Dell
and other big companies caught onto this and started letting you
customize
their PCs. But even with these customizations from Dell, you are
quite
limited. I advise to get one custom built or build it yourself.
It's
easy
and you get a great warranty on your components. Maybe three years.
Then
you
can select from a wider variety of video and audio cards. The
"best"
computer is one tailored to your needs. You might get this from
Dell,
HP,
Sony or Apple but those are in some way proprietary systems and
they
will
cost you more money than a custom built computer that uses standard
parts.
Warranties will run out.

Tailored computer? Explain that.

Obviously if someone wants to have
an awesome gaming machine then they will want a top video card,
motherboard, etc, but other than that how much "tailoring" can you
do...and why?

You choose the components you'll need. For example, someone who is
going
to do very little graphics work could save money. They could get a MB
with a
built in graphics adapter or a lower priced video card. They wouldn't
need
an ATI x1600 card for $150. They could also choose to have less memory
than
1GB. If they were into graphics they could choose to put in a top of
the
line professional video card that isn't offered from the big vendors.
Many
of the big vendors bundle a monitor with the system. A person could
shop
and
choose a monitor they like rather than be saddled wtih the limited
choices
of monitors. I could go on and on. But you get the idea.


I suggest you go on cuz you haven't offered much customization at all.
Video card and monitor??? Please. Monitors are generally optional
unless Dell has an option to throw one in for free. I don't know much
about what professional video types use, but I doubt they build their
own. But we aren't talking about industry specific hardware. If you
want to make case for that....have at it.

You see you're thinking in terms of Apple thinking for you and
telling
you what you need rather than the other way around. Video cards are just
one
thing.

Many professional video types have their systems build to certain
specifications.


For the vast majority, Dell or Apple customizations
will do nicely.

How vast is that majority? Last time I looked a lot of comoanies
are
selling a lot of motherboards to retail customers. They sell a lot of
other
components too. So there are users who are upgrading and building
their
own.

Come on. You're telling me you think the vast majority of PC users
build their own? You couldn't be more wrong.

I was asking you since you claimed it's a vast majority of people who
buy rather than build. I know more folk buy rather than build or have
built.
I'm just asking if you know the ratio since you made the claim


No....obviously I was making a generalization. We are talking about
the average user.

In other words, you don't know. You just said something to support your
point no matter if it's true or not. I understand.





Build a computer yourself only as a hobby.

I don't do it as a hobby. I do it as a purchase of a product
that I
assemble. A hobby is something you just for fun. I play around with
older
computers from major vendors as a hobby.

So do you generally choose to pay more and get less?

No I pay less and get more.


Disagree


Ok. When that warranty runs out, you'll see who saves money.


>Cuz that's what
you are doing. My coworker builds his own computers but he
acknowledges that he just likes tinkering with hardware and there is no
advantage to building it yourself otherwise.

You can't use your experience with one guy to describe the millions
of
users who build their own to save money in the long run.

Mine and his opinion are based on combined 35 years in the IT industry,
hardware and software.


It doesn't matter how long you've been in the industry to me. There are
plenty of old timers who don't change with the times. But since you put
years on computers. I've been repairing computers in one way or another for
20 years. My mentor had been at it for over thirty years. He was repairing
mainframes when home computers were a luxury owned by few. One thing remains
true no matter how times change. They have a way to get you. They will sell
you something at a loss to make money down the road.

Back in the mid to late 1990s. My mentor went about telling people not
to buy proprietary computers. He showed them why. He would go to IBM, Apple,
Dell, Compaq and HP to show people the cost of the replacement proprietary
parts. Motherboards were up to a thousand dollars to replace. CD-ROM drives
were hundreds of dollars more than the ones over the counter. Apple was one
of the worst. I remember seeing an Apple motherboard costing $700 or more
bucks. After my mentor went around spreading this information, many of them
started taking down the parts list and prices from their web sites. Not
saying it was my mentor alone but people were getting wise.


Plenty of advantages. Here's a superficial one. If you don't like the
case that Dells come in, you can choose your own. Like I said, some big
companies only have a few video card selections, Sometimes they don't
even
have the top of the line card. You don't even know what type of
CD/DVD-R/RW
drive ships with the unit from Dell. I mean those components have
different
capabilities. Some won't even write DVD-RAM disks. Some drives are just
plain better than others.

Uh....ok.....if you want your own case....fine. Not usually a concern
for the average user.

Ok now you're putting the qualifier "average user" in here. That's
fine. If you really want to do that.

Most DVD devices do not support DVD-RAM.
That would be a highly specialized need. Average user? No.

No it isn't. DVD-RAM is a disk standard and more and more companies are
putting it back into their drives. It used to be only one or two companies
put it in, now that's growing. DVD-RAM is a flexible format that lets you
use your DVD as a drag and drop storage device. Granted there are other
methods for doing it with software on regular RW disks but it's still very
viable and sometimes faster.

Explain how DVD-RAM is a "highly specialized" feature? That's a new one
on me.


>There is
no real benefit to doing so otherwise. I used to be into the build
it
yourself mode, but the novelty eventually wore off and I got tired
of
paying the same amount of money on parts that I would on a new
computer.

That's you're experience. Many have a lot better experience
especially
when that warranty runs out. If it doesn't then you're paying money to
renew
that warranty for years. With a custom built machine or self built
machine,
that money can be used for a near total upgrade to a faster system
with
more
capabilities. I've seen people who have computers from big vendors and
they
keep updating the warranty and then when they want a new computer they
might
get a small discount for a tradein. Most of the time they don't they
just
have to fork out too much money for a whole new computer. Most people
aren't
rich and won't throw away money on a new computer when they don't have
to.


Most people don't want the hassle of building a computer. They want to
just use it. If it breaks, they want the manufacturer to fix it.

That's why they get someone else to do it. The manufacturer will fix
any part that screws up.

You mean "manufacturers". So you better keep up with every receipt you
have. Again, not something your average user will want to deal with.
It is not practical or cost effective for them.

Actually you don't need to keep up with your receipt. Most manufacturers
let you register your part online. It's really useful. It can even send you
emails when upgrades or other info is out there. When you want to get
service, you don't need a receipt, you need only the serial number on the
part or on the box. Not to hard to keep. This is the same with Dell BTW. You
see it was a big problem for companies to go throug the motions when
customers complained about losing their receipts and still wanted service. I
think law in many states say you have to still provide service.




Then there is the upgrade option. With a PC made from standard
parts,
you can upgrade it to a cutting edge system for minimal cost. With
proprietary systems you are sometimes forced to just buy a new PC.
You
can
save hundreds or thousands of dollars. Typically an older standard
PC
can
have a new video card, memory, CPU and motherboard for about $450.
That's
compared to a new computer costing a lot more.

I can buy a new dell for $500 and get a heck of a lot more than you
will buying a video card, memory, cpu and motherboard for $450. Bad
advice, dude.

No you won't. Let's compare prices shall we? Let's look at that
$500
Dell.

http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/featured_basdt?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

Those Dells in that price range are Celeron D processors. I don't
know
if you know this but Celeron mean cheap and low performance.


Geez. No wonder. You have no idea what you are doing.

Excuse you. I know exactly what I'm doing and only a person who
knows
nothing would buy a Celeron processor. Celerons are cheaper because they
have little or no cache. When doing graphics or other CPU entensive
applications, Celerons are slow, damnded slow. Celeron's are cheap
processors.

Who said anything about buying Celerons???

You said I didn't know what I'm doing because I was against Celerons.




Now the the system upgrade I would preform is to upgrade the main
components.

CPU: Pentium D 2.66GHz $115
Memory: Kingston 512 MB upgrade $50
Motherboard: ASUS $80
Video Card: ATI x1600 Pro 512MB GDDR2 $181

Total $426


So you would buy a low-end motherboard and the cheapest CPU you could
find, slap in ONLY 512 mb ram and then plug in a $226 (not $181
according to newegg) video card???? Hilarious.

No you twit. I'm talking of an upgrade, the 512 memory is in
addition
to memory already there.

IF your old ram works with your new motherboard. No guarantee.


You can buy the same kind of memory you already have and the MB will
have slots for it. It's very simple to see what you're upgrading. Damn this
is pretty easy to figure out, you sure you worked a long time repairing
computers?


The video card is rebated if you had read correctly. ATI always
has
some rebate going. The motherboard is not low end. You are clueless. I
guess
you haven't seen the trend in motherboards these days. The high end
doesn't
cost as much any more. The motherboard is a mid-range MB.

And your parts warranties varies anywhere from 15 days up.

Are you smoking sherm? Not one part I mention has less than a three
year warranty.

Not from newegg.com. You're talking manufacturer warranties. More on
that later.

I never said I was depending on newegg.com for the warranty. You must
have made that up. Manufacturer warranties are a good thing. More on that
later.


And some
parts, such as the CPU, are covered by manufacturer only.
Wow....quite a deal you got there.

Yep lets look at that manufacturer's warranty. That's three years.
It's
not an OEM part. In fact the lowest warratny is probably one year. The
Video
Card and CPU have three year warranties. The Kingston memory has a
LIFETIME
warranty and that's for their lowest priced memory. When you buy that
***
in your Dell you get a ONE YEAR warranty on all the parts. You have to
pay
extra for more. So it is a deal.

That's great. Manufacturer warranties are wonderful if you don't mind
having to keep every receipt for every single part.

Already dispelled this myth. I've had to replace a part and never needed
the receipt. All I needed was a serial number. I replaced a Western Digital
HD with the serial number. Video cards are the same.

Problem is that
when there is a problem, your average user will not be able to
troubleshoot their machine and find the defective part.

That's why you get somneone who knows what their doing to have a build
your own computer or a tech can do it for you for nothing if you bought the
comuter from them. Most of the tech's I know won't charge for that. You're
starting to bark up the right tree. Dells and other computers like it are
for people who don't know much. They're the suckers. The people who know
just a little more can save money.

Even if they
can, they will have to ship the part off to get it replaced. In the
meantime, no computer. Hope it wasn't important. I pay a little more
and am back up and running within a few days.

It can take little time to replace the parts. But much longer than
three days. Now if you buy parts from places like Circuit City or CompUSA,
you can get the part replaced the same day. So you're up an running faster
than a Dell service call. All you need is the serial number and/or barcode
from the box. No receipt needed. If you pay with a card, they can also get
the infor from that.



Here's what I priced at Dell for $589.

Dell Dimension E510
Pentium D 2.80 GHz
512 mb ram (you need at least 1 gb....but hey....following your lead)
ATI Radeon X600 SE Hypermemory 256mb (not quite as good as yours,
granted)

It's an old card that is cheap. One of the cheapest peices of junk
ATI
puts out.


And for a whopping extra $112 than you paid I also get...


Since you put so much into how much warranty you get, how much would
you pay to get three year warranties on the Dell hardware? Can you even
get
a lifetime warranty on the memory like my memonry has?

$150 more for 3 years if you need it. Granted, I'm not sure that's
worth it.

Yea you're going to pay that kind of money for more warranty on a
computer that you don't even know what parts are in it. Now remember when
you brought up "the average user"? Well here it comes to bite you in the
ass. The "average user" does not buy the extended warranty. They stick with
the one year warranty. Now what do you think happens when the warranty runs
out and a part fails on that Dell? I tell you what happens. Me. They bring
them to people like me and we deal with them.

I'd rather have a one year warranty from Dell than a three
year warranty on 10 different parts from 10 different manufacturers.
So would the average user.

The average users would run from Dell if they knew why they sold
computers so cheaply and almost at a loss. When the average user chooses not
to buy the extended warranty and the computer goes out in a couple of years,
it may cost too much to fix. So there is Dell telling you to buy a brand new
system. Then there's me telling my buyers to upgrade. All parts eventually
fail and need to be replaced. It costs more to have big companies do it for
you and chances are, they're using refurbished or used parts. I know I've
been on the other end of this deal.



Windows XP Media Center

I won't even bother to laugh in your face on this one. You obviously
have no idea what this version of XP is and why Dell gives it to you.
When
you get it, you'll laugh too if you don't get pissed.


Ugh....fine. Choose XP Home instead at no extra charge or pay extra
and get Pro. I've used Media Center before and found nothing wrong
with it. Either way, none of this comes with your parts.

I would advise that you get pro. XP media center is an installation
only. You don't get a disk. Then you get that bundle of software. Yea they
give you Corel Word Perfect but what they don't tell you is that it's a
60-day trial version. They give you some usefull stuff like McAfee suite and
stuff but that's about it.


80 gb SATA hard drive
CD-RW DVD Drive
Mouse and keyboard
1 Year SYSTEM Warranty with AT HOME service

Also with that paltry one year warranty, you don't know what the hell
is
in the Dell. You don't know what kind of motherboard, memory or HD. I can
tell you about MBs in those systems. Dell and other big companies are
notorious for putting in old MBs that have been upgraded via firmware to
accept the newer processors. The MB doesn't have all the features of a
factory fresh MB you choose yourself.


Never heard of this and I'm doubtful. You'll have to come up with
some reference.

Ok I'll give you a reference. Me. When they design their computers,
they do it at least a year ahead of time. They may use cheap parts and they
may not. You can find out by opening up a number of Dell computers and
getting the manufacture date of the MB. Now I don't have a current Dell here
so I'll have to look next time I open one up. The fact is that when you buy
it, you don't know for sure what you're getting. When you have a
non-proprietary computer upgraded or upgrade yourself you know exactly what
you're getting.




These prices are rough estimates but are consistent with current
retail
prices from Newegg.com. The system is by far better than any new
system
you
get from Dell for $500. The $500 Dells are Celerons and Pentium 4s. I
won't
go into what graphics card they used because they didn't even list it,
you
have to dig to find out. It's shitty.


Well....except that you were wrong.

Nope I'm right. You were wrong. You just didn't read the part where
you
get a $50 rebate for the video card from ATI.

Yep, I was wrong about that.


Tell me how the four components
you would pay $476 is a better deal than the full-fledged computer I
priced for just $112 more. You can't. If you try, you're a fool.
Plain and simple.

First of all when you can tell me who makes the MB, CD/DVD drive and
memory, then you can make that claim. I will tell you that CD/DVD-R/RW
drives vary in the speeds they can write media from different companies.
It's better to get a brand name that has a media compatibility list so
you
know what media to buy.

Ok, but the average user doesn't care about the MB brand. Drives are
going to vary no matter who makes them.

The less knowledgable user doesn't care about the MB because he thinks
it doesn't matter. But as we techs know, it does. As for the drives, same
thing. If you buy a drive you can see what media will write at what speed.
With Dell you just have to hope and pray. You might be able to dig up the
info on the Internet but that's a bit iffy. I've seen people buy media and
have it not work on a particular drive. For example one drive didn't want to
write on TDK DVD-Rs if you put close to 4 GB on the drive. They had to take
the discs back to the store and buy some that were compatible.





How can you save money when you can get better components and
upgrade
farther for less money? You're talking out of your ass.


I've already proven that you can get a better deal by buying a new
computer.

Nope. It's not a better deal if you don't know what components
you're
getting inside that Dell.

Most of which is oblivous to the average user anyway.

And that's the PT Barnum line. A sucker is born every minute. They are
oblivious. They can sell them anything as brand new and they don't know what
they're getting.

Usually folks
look at processor, memory, and hard drive. Anything more specific than
that and folks would get totally lost.

But more and more people are learning as people become more computer
savy. I go into a store and someone keeps buy those HDs and video cards
because I keep seing the shelves empty and refilled at CompUSA, Best Buy and
Circuit City. So there are quite a few people who look at more than just the
HD size, CPU speed and memory.


But you keep talking like a big shot. You're just making
yourself look more and more like a fool.


Only a fool would say that those products had a 15 day warranty. I
tend to think a three year warranty and a lifetime warranty are better
than
a one year warranty. The warranty says how much confidence the
manufacturer
has in their product.

I was referring to the newegg.com warranty and I did not say it was all
the components. And again, I call one company for all my support
needs. You have to deal with several and have a long turn around time
on your components. Dell comes to me usually the next business day.

I just went to Newegg for current prices. You can buy the same parts
from Best Buy, CompUSA and Circuit City. Then you can go to that company
for support. Circuit City even has an extended warranty for individual
computer parts. I just bought a DC/DVD-R/RW from them, it came with a two
year warranty and I got two years extended. That's four years of warranty.
When it goes out, I get a credit for the amount I paid for it and can buy a
new one. So the turn around time is moot when you can buy parts from stores
like Circuit City or CompUSA.

I guess you haven't been shopping for computer parts lately. Those big
chains know that people are building their own so they are providing those
individual part extended warranties. It's better than Dell because you can
keep right on renewing it and you get a replacement part rather than getting
that same thing fixed.


Look John, we just aren't going to agree on this. I'll give you the
last word.


The last word doesn't matter. I'm just letting you know that proprietary
systems are a rip-off down the line. A much bigger than the small rip-off
you get from buying parts and in some cases no rip-off at all.

John



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