Re: Why Its Pointless To Argue With Global Warming Believers

ZnU wrote:

In article <mNWdnQrlkMKDFQTZnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
GreyCloud <mist@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


ZnU wrote:


In article <euCdndwFq8u6WgXZnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
GreyCloud <mist@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



ZnU wrote:



A gold-backed dollar would also float in value.


You can say this, but you have no proof of this.


I have already demonstrated that the price of gold fluctuates relative to the price of other goods. IOW, that the price floats.


The price floats because the USD is the so-called legal tender now, not gold. The price didn't vary much when there were gold certificate and silver certificate notes in circulation.


Take a look at http://minerals.usgs.gov/ds/2005/140/gold.pdf

Particularly, the 98$/t column. This column is in inflation-adjusted 1998 dollars. Inflation adjustments are made based on the consumer price index, which means that the value in this column directly represents a quantity of CPI goods and services. IOW, all of the 'float' in the USD itself has been removed, and what you're seeing what quantity of consumer goods you can buy with a ton of gold.

You may note that this number changes quite a lot, even prior to the adoption of the paper USD.


I see you have no response. Please stop making absurd statements and then ignoring me when I correct them.


Missed that one.

I'd say that the numbers, like statistics, seem to be jimmied up.
Look at the current cost of postage stamps. Back then it took over 20 years before the 2 cent stamp bumped up to a 3 cent stamp. Today the inflation pressures are far steeper than the past by a great deal. It is the little things that give it away.

[snip]


I was thinking more along the lines of an economy where most people don't work on farms.


But you need farms. Without them what will you eat?
All modern civilizations have as a base farming.


Yes, but in modern first-world economies, one or two percent of the workforce is all that's necessary to grow the food for everyone. The rest of the population is off generating wealth in other ways, which creates a much more dynamic, fast-moving society, dominated by rapid economic and technological change.

But no country ever moved from hunter-gatherer to a modern economy.
The only reason that it only takes less than 2% of the population is mainly due to corporate farming and better equipment.


In other words, the fact that things were more stable in pre-industrial societies has very little to do with the fact that they often used gold coins.


What pre-industrial society. Our society was industrial before the civil war.


And yes you have shown this, but only during the reign of the Federal Reserve. Before that inflation and deflation really was non existent.


Actually, I showed it prior to the establishment of the Federal Reserve as well.


Not much if you ask me... very little.


Nobody really asked you.


Just going on personal experience. Those graphs are really meaningless until you actually had to live thru those years. A whole different story.


Look, I'm really done here. I've made detailed arguments, posted lots of data... and it's becoming increasingly clear that you simply don't comprehend some of the basic issues involved here. There's no point in continuing this discussion.


I'm just pointing out that people are so deeply used to or familiar with a system that is slowly sinking that the majority can't even see the edge of the waterfall up ahead.


I have demonstrated that the system is not "slowly sinking", as wage growth outpaces inflation.


Those figures do not show a sinking system tho. The fact that the USD floats is a cause in not knowing when the ship is starting to sink.


You have not made a coherent argument as to why the paper USD will cause the system to sink.

Because of the USDs slow devaluation over time, which affects our standard of living, along with inflation.


What? Inflation *is* "the USDs slow devaluation over time". These aren't two separate effects which both must be taken into account. This is *basic* stuff. How can you think you're qualified to argue these issues without understanding it?

Oh, I understand it painfully and am quite aware of where the USD is heading.



Living near big cities tends to hide this from the working class. But even the working class is feeling the pinch. That's why there are two breadwinners in a family instead of one, like it used to be.


Once again, average inflation-adjusted income is *vastly* higher than it was in 1900, or even 1950. The reason there are often two breadwinners in a family today is *not* because individual workers have less buying power, but because:

1) There's more stuff out there that one *can* buy now, and people are willing to work for it.
2) Many women choose not to stay at home now that they actually have other options.
3) The collapse of unions has reduced real wages for *certain types* of jobs.

And for those that do not have a college education and are married, it does take two bread-winners to make ends meet... like food, rent, taxes, car payments, medical insurance payments, etc. Face it, the middle class is becoming squeezed out of existence.


Note that none of these factors has anything to do with the value of the USD.



Could have fooled me.

It is only a matter of time.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Us_real_gdp_growth.gif

Yes, I see the problem. We're in big trouble of things keep up like that.


If you believe in statistics... ;-)


--
Where are we going?
And why am I in this handbasket?
.

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    ... I have already demonstrated that the price of gold fluctuates relative to the price of other goods. ... Inflation adjustments are made based on the consumer price index, which means that the value in this column directly represents a quantity of CPI goods and services. ... IOW, all of the 'float' in the USD itself has been removed, and what you're seeing what quantity of consumer goods you can buy with a ton of gold. ...
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