Re: FireWire going the way of SCSI and ADB?

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 18:21:32 -0500, ZnU <znu@xxxxxxxxxxxx> chose to
bless us with the following wisdom:

>In article <0epop1dn1u19jb4i8cl3ejd255goc3ei9c@xxxxxxx>,
> Mayor of R'lyeh <mayor.of.rlyeh@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:17:07 -0500, ZnU <znu@xxxxxxxxxxxx> chose to
>> bless us with the following wisdom:
>>
>> >In article <8ndnp1tm1atv6mfgpc8polkm410g3qjglq@xxxxxxx>,
>> > Mayor of R'lyeh <mayor.of.rlyeh@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>> >> >There is no 'process' here. It's true, if a camera has a hard drive,
>> >> >rather than tape, that relaxes the need to do reliable real-time
>> >> >transfers -- that's the only thing that allows these cameras to use USB
>> >> >at all.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.choice.com.au/viewArticle.aspx?id=104527&catId=100274&tid=100008
>> >> &p=
>> >> 2 "In addition to their fast speeds, FireWire and Hi-Speed USB share
>> >> some other common characteristics: Plug and play connectivity: both
>> >> standards allow you to plug and unplug devices without turning off or
>> >> rebooting your computer. Both are compatible with Mac and Windows.
>> >> Both guarantee a certain minimum data transfer rate. This is
>> >> beneficial for time-sensitive data such as digital video, which can
>> >> result in annoying gaps and pauses when it's transferred at low or
>> >> inconsistent speeds."
>> >
>> >USB bandwidth falls off quite a bit for such transfers, however. Read
>> >the docs. FireWire can use up to 80% of full bandwidth for isochronous
>> >transfers. USB 2.0 can use about 40%.
>>
>> Nonetheless, its still adequate for consumer video transfers without
>> forcing people to buy a Firewire card and cable.
>
>At the moment, possibly. But I'm wondering, if it really works as well
>in the real world, why no full resolution MiniDV camera that has to do
>real-time digital transfer presently uses it.

They probably went for Firewire because it actually does work better
for this kind of thing and they anticipated that Firewire would be
standard on all computers at some time in the near future.
I'm guessing that if that knew that Firewire was going to so limited
in distrubtion amongst consumers they would have at least made USB 2.0
optional on their consumer level products.

>
>> >> > But clearly you *want* a camera to be able to do such transfers,
>> >> >even if it does have a hard drive.
>> >>
>> >> USB 2.0 does that. USB OTG will be peer to peer.
>> >
>> >USB OTG is not here yet, and may not actually end up being any cheaper
>> >than FireWire.
>>
>> USB's already wider adoption will provide a leg up for it when it does
>> get here unless the costs are greatly out of proportion.
>
>USB has wider adoption in the desktop computer market. You're assuming
>that will cause it to take over in the consumer electronics market,
>which is presently dominated by FireWire. Why couldn't it just as easily
>go the other way?

Anything can happen. But consider the adage 'Nothing draws a crowd
like a crowd.' USB already has a crowd going while Firewire does not,
at least in the consumer space.
Also my assumptions are based on the fact that most consumers are not
happy when they find that they need to shell out extra $$ for a
Firewire card and cable in order to do this computer video editing
thing that they got all excited about.
Something would need to happen to get Firewire made standard on PCs.
Apple made Firewire more attractive by deliberately crippling their
implementation of USB 2.0. That's not going to happen in the PC world.
In PCdom Firewire 400 is only marginally faster than USB 2.0. The
difference isn't great enough for most people to care about.
They're going to have to come up with some 'must have' consumer level
toys that need the bandwidth of Firewire 800 in order to popularize
Firewire on PCs.

>
>> >> > You might leave it off low-end models to save a couple of bucks,
>> >> > but that's hardly the start of an industry trend.
>> >>
>> >> Keep on whistling. That graveyard has to end sometime. 8)
>> >
>> >FireWire is already twice as fast as USB -- more like four times as fast
>> >for real-time transfers.
>>
>> Something that's likely to go back and forth as things advance.
>
>USB has never been ahead of FireWire, and basically appears to still be
>lagging a generation behind. (Two generations, on some features.)

But are they features anyone cares about? It looks like the answer to
that, so far anyway, is 'No'.

>
>> > It's a more flexible specification. It's already widely adopted in
>> > the consumer electronics industry.
>>
>> It is? Who uses it besides video cameras?
>
>The 1394 trade association says there are 60K products

And how many of thos are discontinued models?

> on the market
>that use FireWire. Cameras, higher-end audio gear, digital set-top
>boxes, video conferencing hardware, etc.

In order to popularize it they're going to need some more consumer
level stuff.

>
>It's also backed by the major names in the consumer electronics market,
>and some of these companies will be very hesitant to back an Intel
>standard just on general principles.

Like I said before, I'm sure the manufacturerers are getting some
grief over the need to shell out more $$ for a Firewire card. That's
not general principles. That's responding to consumer demand.

>
>> Apple doesn't even use it for iPods anymore.
>
>iPods (like digital still cameras) are on the line between consumer
>electronics devices and computer peripherals.

Which doesn't really say anything about Apple dropping it from iPods.

>
>[snip]
>
>> >You guys claimed USB 2.0 would kill FireWire,
>>
>> Actually you guys claimed that Firewire would lead to USB 2.0 being
>> stillborn. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?
>
>Actually, what *I* said was that USB 2.0 would do just fine, because of
>Intel's market power, it just wouldn't eliminate the need for FireWire.
>Which has been pretty much true.
>
>> > and it barely had any impact on FireWire at all.
>>
>> Firewire would have had to have an impact first. So far, outside of
>> external periphereal for Macs and video cameras its a no-show for the
>> average consumer. USB 2.0 is used for everything else.
>>
>> > Why is it we're always waiting for the *next* version of USB, which
>> > will *really* do it?
>>
>> I don't recall anyone ever saying that Firewire would be 'killed
>> off'. And just what do you want? Firewire went from having the high
>> speed external peripheral market all to itself to practically
>> becoming an non player except in a couple of areas with the arrival
>> of USB 2.0.
>
>I recall several threads which basically consisted of Apple bashers who
>didn't understand the difference between the technologies crowing about
>how Intel was going to kill off FireWire.

And I recall several claiming that no one would use USB 2.0 because
Firewire would be used for everything by the time it came out.

[Snip]



--
"Maybe atheists would have an easier time winning
acceptance if they didn't act like such jerks all
the time."

James Taranto Best Of The Web 12-02-2005
.

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