Re: OSX on Intel Could Destroy Microsoft

In article <znu-A19990.18450728112005@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, ZnU <znu@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

> > > That's being a little unfair, isn't it? If we're comparing desktop apps
> > > to web apps, it's worth remember that an app that works in just Firefox
> > > and Safari still has a wider potential reach than an app that only
> > > works on a single operating system.
> >
> > Not sure what you mean - Outlook on a Windows PC sure has more compatible
> > environments than a web app that requires Safari or Firefox.
>
> If you mean not everyone has Firefox or Safari installed, that's true.
> But pretty much everyone *can* install Firefox or Safari, if they see a
> compelling reason to do so. I've had no problem convincing clients to
> install Firefox for accessing back-end interfaces, for instance, which
> has allowed me to do things there that would have been much more work if
> IE also had to be supported.

Yes, but I am building web pages that are visitied by visitors, whose browser
choice I cannot decide.

The links I gave you to the "Desktop Publishing" wannabe-parts of my project
aren't compatible with all browsers (Opera, for instance) but it's in the admin
interface, not in the public interface.

And you have to keep in mind that I am building a system that has an admin
part, where I can have some basic featureset and a "high-end" featureset that
requires a specific browser - but on the "public page" where people are
visiting, or are members and write in weblogs (and thus require a stripped down
admin interface for that), I can't demand anything. I have to develop for IE 6
there. Or even 5.

A tradeoff I have done, however, is the PNG transparency fix that I am using in
order to utilize all my icons correctly - that fix only works on IE 5.5. and up
- IE below that get opaque PNG's.

> > Exactly. But "append to list" is a global command, since it applies
> > to "the list" not "a list item". I generally keep context-specific
> > actions tied to the specific items, such as "edit" and "delete". The
> > reason for this isn't that it's more logical, its because the web UI
> > can't "objectify" items naturally.
> >
> > If I could apply desktop UI standards, I could shift-select several
> > items in todo-list and then have a global command that applies to the
> > selected items.
> >
> > But, as I said - "add todo item" is a global command and not a
> > context command, even if it actually appends to the list at a
> > specific position (mind you, the list may be sorted in a way that the
> > new todo might not appear at the end).
>
> It's not specific to the context of an item, but it is specific to the
> context of a list. It's more natural, IMO, to click 'Add Item' on a list
> than it would be to (to use a common desktop pattern), make a list the
> active view and choose 'New Item' from a menu.

That I agree with - but that's really not what I was getting at. I was
comparing my "toolbar"-like Add Item button that is at the top of the page and
may or may not add items to the bottom of the page to a "Add Item" control that
is found at the very end of a list that could be too long to be displayed on
screen.

Compare UI between Printer Setup Utility (Add Printer) to Basecamp. With
desktop UI, the list of objects is a different entity and scrolling inside it
won't affect the toolbar in any way. I can do this in eb UI of course, but not
"natively". As the pseudo code I pasted in earlier portrayed, I wwanted to have
a "list" object in html that can contain list items beyond the scope of a
normal <select> tag.

> And in Basecamp, a newly added to-do item *is* always added to the end
> of the list.

Exactly, so the "it may be sorted otherwise" problem doesn't apply there, sorry
if it seemed that I implied it did - but the problem of "add item control could
be off-screen" problem is still there.

> > In my forum module, however, I keep actions in the spot where posts
> > will appear, which I know beforehand depending on whether people are
> > looking at it in linear or hierarchical mode. So, in linear mode, the
> > new post will appear at the end, so that's where the "add post"
> > button is. In hierarchical mode it will appear at the top, so... But,
> > this doesn't mean I put the entire form at that spot, just the action
> > button.
>
> Well, with Basecamp, the action button expands into the form -- which is
> another neat example of maintaining context.

Yes, and something I could do. Since we begun having this discussion, I've
begun thinking about that. MInd you, expanding/displaying the form (as in my
calendar) and opening a popup window to do the same isn't terribly different
UI-wise.

> The form stays expanded (unless you close it) after the first item
> you've added to make it easier to add other items.

Yeah, that's a good idea - since you're obviously already in "edit" mode rather
than "view mode".

But I think I would solve this by having the "Add Todo item" control at the top
in the toolbar, and expand the form in between the toolbar and the list, rather
than having both at the very bottom.

Hey, something productive may have come out of this discussion - in csma.
Amazing :)



--
Sandman[.net]

"As far as my decision to use the PC goes, that
went according to my pocketbook"
- Edwin, too poor to afford a Mac.
.

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