Re: Price does matter - Mac potentially forces mom to stay on Welfare

In article <LOS3f.2311$6l.2188@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
TheLetterK <theletterk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> > In article <RlS3f.2280$6l.1643@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
> > TheLetterK <theletterk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article <5rqvk1tbj86r1caa6h20uh2gjeto78se5g@xxxxxxx>,
> >>> Mayor of R'lyeh <mayor.of.rlyeh@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 03:42:29 GMT, "Fred" <Fred@xxxxxxxx> chose to
> >>>>bless us with the following wisdom:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>"RichardK" <atari@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> >>>>>news:3r8bi9Fi5b66U1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Fred wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>No Richard, I was just trying to help someone off the dole with the
> >>>>>>>most
> >>>>>>>cost effective HW/SW.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Off the dole? I wasn't aware that they called it 'the dole' in the US
> >>>>>>of
> >>>>>>A...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>It's not. Think of where Charles and Di opened Expo 86.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Best way to help people off the dole, is to not give it to them in the
> >>>>>>first place.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>And let the single mother and child starve on the streets when the
> >>>>>husband
> >>>>>leaves them with nothing.
> >>>>
> >>>>Because expecting her to get off her dead ass and get a job is just
> >>>>unthinkable, isn't it?
> >>>>
> >>>>[Snip]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>That is cold, heartless and dumb.
> >>
> >>It's cold, heartless, and the method that worked since we first began to
> >>congregate in cities.
> >>
> >
> > Bullshit! We as a people have always been there for the downtrodden.
> Need I cite the period between 1863 and 1913?
>
Well, if you really feel the need to... ;-)

> > Either as a gov't program, or as a charity.
> This extends well before the creation of this country.
>
True.

> >
> >
> >>>Give them welfare for a short period of time,
> >>
> >>Alright, and what if she can't/won't get a job? Do we dump her on her
> >>ass then? It's still 'cold and heartless'.
> >>
> >
> > Yep, then we dump her. Because she has not taken any responsibility for
> > her actions, or inaction.
> So why do we keep her afloat even for a time? Why should my money be
> stolen from me for this task? If I want to help the poor and
> downtrodden, shouldn't my contribution be made privately? However, if
> there aren't enough of us willing to contribute, then what mandate gives
> the government responsibility to say that I will? Isn't this supposed to
> be 'for the people, by the people'? Wouldn't the ultimate expression of
> that idea be purely private charity organizations, rather than
> government-funded welfare?
>
Let's assume that we don't continue. So a fair question is what
'welfare' have you drawn? I suspect more than you think.

> >
> >
> >>>train them for a job and
> >>>then help get them a job. That is the way to do it.
> >>
> >>I find it best to avoid welfare altogether. Our government has no
> >>responsibility to keep food in your pantry, nor a roof over your head.
> >>
> >
> > Nor does it have a responsibility to have things like guaranteed home
> > mortgages (FHA, FMHA and Veterans), GI Bill or any other student loan
> > program, and certainly not tax breaks for specified industries or social
> > engineering, Yet we do all those too.
> That's true, and all of them are illegitimate. Even the ones that do good.
>
But all of them result in positives to society and that is why we have
them and will probably keep most of them.

> >
> >
> >>> It is smart,
> >>
> >>It is wasteful.
> >>
> >>
> >>>helps
> >>>the person, and helps society as a whole.
> >>
> >>No, it encourages an ever-increasing cycle of economic dependency. No
> >>man learns faster than the one being shot at. As long as there is a
> >>'safety net', there will be little encouragement to get out.
> >
> >
> > Nope, by helping them get to the point of self-dependence,
> You don't do that by handing them a check. If nothing else, make them
> join the military on reserve, or national guard.
>
Having served for many years, the military doesn't deserve the screwing
that would cause. Single parents are a real burden on a command.

> > we get the
> > taxes they pay
> After handing them checks for years. Income tax is an illegitimate
> extension of authority anyway. Do you honestly think 90% of the people
> on welfare are ever going to contribute back even three quarters of what
> they took?
>
I'm not talking years, I'm talking months.

Under current laws, the vast majority of welfare people won't contribute
a damn thing. But that is more the fault of a screwy implementation of
a relatively good idea than it is anything else.

> > and the results of the work they do.
> And the results of the work they don't do.
>
> > If the gov't
> > doesn't do at least that, then either charity takes over, or they start
> > helping themselves to the things you have acquired.
> Private charities are ethical, government theft is not.
>
I don't consider taxes government theft even though I disagree
vehemently with some of the things it pays for. I suspect that my list
and yours would disagree on most things, but would agree on many.

> >
> > The problem isn't that there are safety nets, the problem is they have
> > become a way of life, too often pushed by our elected officials.
> And will continue to be a way of life until we drop the program
> entirely. It was a bad idea, made worse through real implementation.

Nope, dropping the programs is a poor idea, imo. Radically changing
them is more to my liking.
.

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