Re: Music: Rent Vs Own

In article <1124836571.900713.307920@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
"-hh" <recscuba_google@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> TravelinMan wrote:
> > -hh wrote:
> > > What this means is that when you have a product supplier who is both
> > > expensive and inconvenient, there is strong motivation to seek out
> > > alternatives, legal and possibly also otherwise.
> >
> > None of which justifies theft.
>
> True. And if you really want to have a meaningful discussion, you'll
> get off your "one hit wonder" where you're only focused on the "T"
> word.

As soon as criminal stop advocating theft, I'll stop talking about it.

>
>
> > > ...you trade-off a higher price in order to circumvent
> > > product shortages in the White economy, etc.
> >
> > That's nonsense. Black Market goods are almost always less expensive
> > than legitimate goods. If the stolen/pirated/copied black market goods
> > cost more than the originals, why would anyone buy the black market?
>
> Because they are available whereas the White goods are not. See the
> part directly above that says "trade-off a higher price in order to
> circumvent product shortages..."

Which is a very unusual situation. 99% of the time, the black market
exists to provide a lower cost product - not a higher cost one.

> FWIW, do note that this is the classical Black Market definition, which
> differs from the modern Black Market where, as you suggest, prices can
> indeed be lower.
>
> For another example, see the Black Market Star Wars Episode III DVD,
> which is not yet available at any price through legal retail supply
> chains.

But it will be soon.

So you're advocating theft because you're impatient rather than because
your cheap. No difference.

>
>
> > > However, this paradigm doesn't apply to the music marketplace: it is
> > > both more available as well as cheaper...and before going any further,
> > > we need to ask ourselves: how and why can this be?
> >
> > Because it's not true.
>
> Since you yourself were complaining about cheaper T shirts being sold
> by unauthorized vendors, you're now contradicting your own statements.

Nice attempt to change the subject.

In your previous post, you claimed that the black market product was
more available. In reality, it's not - in general. Other than a very few
obscure situations, it's not hard to find legal music, so the black
market isn't 'more available'.

>
>
>
> > 99% of what's being stolen on Grokster, etc is quite readily available
> > either via iTunes or your local record store. Availability is another of
> > the dishonest justifications that criminals use.
>
> And yet, illegally ripped MP3's don't contain DRM restrictions, they
> have better portability and thus are a more 'available' and are
> effectively a more desirable product.

How is a stolen version any more available than the same music on
iTunes?

Just because you don't like DRM doesn't mean that legal music isn't
available.

>
>
> > > Well, when we get back to the Music/Movie market as the example, it is
> > > very transparently obvious that the White economy prices are
> > > artificially high and effectively confiscatory.
> >
> > Inflammatory and meaningless words.
>
> I disagree, and I can demonstrate it, if you're reasonable and
> objective:
>
> A generic CD music album today retails for $15-$18, and yet street
> vendors illegally pirating the same basic product...complete with jewel
> case and lookalike label...can successfully sell it for $5 and make a
> profit that they consider to be satisfactory to support their
> operations. In other words, their profit may not be huge, but its big
> enough for them to be willing to take the risks.
>
> Next, it is generally known that the artist's commission on a CD is
> around 8.5 - 10 cents per track, or roughly $1 - $1.50 per CD. And
> yes, you don't have to remind me that this is a cost being stolen by
> the professional illegal pirate.
>
> Similarly, since this is notionally a street-corner salesman, he has
> lower overhead than a brick-and-mortar store. Assume whatever you want
> for the distribution and overhead costs of a store, but due to pressure
> from Internet sales and so forth, its probably going to be far less
> than a 50% markup.
>
> Putting these factors together, what this means is that a
> competition-based business model yields ($5 + $1.50)*1.50 = $9.75 per
> CD. Note that there's already some profit built into the $5...I'm
> going to assume its around a buck.
>
> But at a retail price of $15-18, this means that there's an additional
> $5.25 - $8.25 that's actually being charged to the customer for going
> through the legal supply chain. This higher cost is due to either
> gross supply chain inefficiencies or a substantially higher profit
> margins, since we've already accounted for the major costs, such as the
> direct cost of manufacturering, artist fee, distributor, etc.
>
> It doesn't really even matter which it is, because neither is in the
> best interest of the customer, and the only real reason that the
> supplier is free to pass it on to the customer is because of the legal
> restriction to trade (the copyright) that is shielding him from having
> to become a more efficient operation, or to operate with less than a
> 40%+ profit margin.
>
>
> YMMV on if a 40% profit margin is "excessive" or not, or even
> "artificially high and effectively confiscatory", but do keep very much
> in mind just how much the WinTrolls banter about Apple's 25% profit
> margin as being excessive. Somewhere, there is a balance, and when we
> look at Stock P:E ratio's, most people today would *kill* for a 10%
> rate of return, let alone a 25%. To get 40% is a wet dream not seen
> outside of bubbles.

IOW, you made up a bunch of numbers that don't have any bearing on
reality, then arbitrarily decided what a 'fair' profit it, and accused
the vendors of violating your imaginary world.

>
>
> > The price is what it is. You can choose to pay it or not.
>
> Yup.
>
> > There's no legal or moral right to say "the price is too
> > high so I'll steal'.
>
> You're half right. You've forgotten that you cannot legislate
> morality, so if Society (yes, big "S") deems that it is immoral,
> Society can move to legally change the law.

Sorry, I don't buy that. If 5 billion people say that it's OK to beat
you to a pulp until your dead because they don't like the shirt you're
wearing, that wouldn't become moral.

>
> > > The "Aider and Abettor" here is the now-multi-genational Copyright laws
> > > which create MORE than a literal lifetime lock on content control...
> >
> > Nonsense. You're free to record your own songs and distribute them to
> > the market place any way you wish. Nothing prevents you.
>
> True, but you're choosing not to listen. Your loss.

If your music was any good, I might listen. What's your point?

>
> > The law just says you can't distribute MY songs.
>
> Actually, you are wrong once again.
>
> The law actually says that I can distribute your songs...but I do have
> to wait until your Copyright expires. If you die today, I'll only have
> to wait 70 years, unless it was a commission piece that you sold today
> on your deathbed...I then would have to wait 120 years.

OK. Correction noted.

We're talking about music that is still under copyright - which is
undoubtedly 99.999% of the music being stolen by Grokster. That doesn't
change the fact that you're advocating theft.
.

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