Re: Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array


Jim,

I did some more experimenting...

Booting from Acronis CD after re-attaching IDE drive to system didn't work
(can't remember the detail now, I've done so much in the last couple of
hrs). I moved the IDE drive to the same cable as the DVD burner and that
didn't work either.

I detached both SATA drives and booted from Acronis Cd again ... and Acronis
can see the IDE drive now! Still seems to be when IDE and RAID are bot on
machine ...

I did find a peculair problem with the way the BIOS works.... the 4 settings
'IDE [Primary/MASter] [Master/Slave] RAID' need to be all 'Disabled' in my
case to ensure that RAID is not being 'attempted'(?) on my IDE drive.
Secondly, whenever the 2 settings 'On=Chip IDE Channel[0/1]' are disabled
and then re-enabled, yu must go back to the 'Standard CMOS Features' and set
the IDE Channel devices to AUTO (otherwise the disable/enable has forced
them to 'NONE'!). After this, I ensure that the RAID array is the first of
the HDD boot priority followed by the IDE HDD.
Now I have the IDE (and DVD) devices being detected on boot startup (which I
probably had before but have changed various BIOS settings and not discovery
the full impact of this disable-enable).

Presuming that the system partition on the IDE drive was perhaps an issue, I
then I booted of the Win XP Pro CD and chose to delete the partition on the
IDE drive. When I then re-booted, I got back to the origional BSOD with the
same error code as before. So I removed the IDE drive thinking the RAID
array would be okay as before (and at worst, get the dirty bit set on D: and
E:). Wrong! Even worse, Windows came back:
"Windows could not start because the following file is missing or corrupt.
\Windows\system32\config\system"

I now *potentially* put this down to using the Win XP CD to remove the IDE
partition without having F6-loaded the NVidia RAID drivers ... imagining
that XP has corrupted the Windows install on the RAID array as with no RAID
driver it sees the two underlying disks....

Panic set in as it looked like I may have lost it all.

I used Win XP CD to boot again but this time loading the Nvidia RAID
drivers. I then went to recovery console and could see all my partitions
(on a single disk, due to the RAID driver). Phew - it looked like all the
files were there. The referenced \Windows\system32\config\system file was
there timestamped at approx the time I deleted the IDE partition (as well as
other files tstp'ed at the same time in same dir).

As I didn't want to start to play with recovery console commands I knew
nothing about, I decided to attempt to re-boot off the RAID array and try
'Last known good config' .... and low and behold Windows came up under the
RAID array! I had run nothing other than help commands under the recovery
console and a 'bootcfg /list' and 'bootcfg /scan'; the list showed 'no boot
entries' and the scan '1 windows install - C:\Windows'. However, I was
*not* asked to choose the only install ([1]) *nor* ran bootcfg /add nor
/rebuild.

I am now at the point that I will not recable the IDE HDD; instead your
option 1 of moving it to a USB or firewaire enclosure seems the only safe
option.

Any opinion re USB or firewire (re which tends to normally 'just work';
transfer speeds, and portability (obviously USB is better, right)).

Note: DVD burning is not an option for backup as I have 50Gb of data (my
wifes graphic design files!).

Hopefully this may have ben helpful for someone with one of these Gigabyte
M/Bs and decides:
1. Don't frig around with RAID, as additions of other drives later may cause
you to lose all your data.

I will now choose to not use RAID (and if absolutely had to do RAID, would
only do it with full hardware support).

Note: My RAID 1 setup has worked flawlessly for 6 months; it was just
adding the extra IDE HDD that caused the issues., and
2. If you do need to add another drive, ensure you have a full backup via an
option which doesn't require cabling internally a new drive.



Regards,
D.

"D" <nomail@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:43708d83$0$44190$c30e37c6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Jim,
>
> You have a very good point; I had been planning to move this setup to a
> USB or fireware enabled removable drive setup.
>
> Before I do, I also have Acronis 8.0. So, given I don't have the
> removable drive option at home, I decided to boot from the Acronis CD-ROM.
> I changed the BIOS to have my DVD drive as the first boot device (with all
> other bo0t devices set to 'None') ... and the IDE drive attached. The
> result is that the PC still boots from the SATA RAID array, bringing
> windows up!!! This was most unexpected and shows that there is more at
> play here...
>
> I've googled re the mobo (GA-KA8NXP-SLI) and sata, ide etc and found
> several sources of people were having drive problems. Unfortunately none
> seem to be attemptin a RAID array and a non-raided IDE drive. From them,
> there were interesting comments to note:
>
> http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.giga-byte/browse_thread/thread/d3005fb28e613a74/a43bde4f7e5248e9?lnk=st&q=ga-k8nxp-sli+ide+sata&rnum=3&hl=en#a43bde4f7e5248e9
> As you may or may not be aware, the on-board RAID controllers are not true
> hardware RAID controllers, and therefore need specific Windows based
> drivers
> to perform the RAID functions, and as such are vulnerable to corruption
> caused by software conflicts/crashes within windows.
> On the other hand, a fully hardware based RAID controller is transparent
> to,
> and completely independent of the OS used on the PC, and does not require
> any drivers to be loaded into the OS for it's correct operation. I assume
> this would result in the arrays on a true hardware based controller being
> less vulnerable to software issues within the OS.
>
> If the above is true, I am not sure that Acronis (or Bootitng) will be
> able to copy the SATA array as it won't have a driver like windows to
> interpret it.
>
> The above, if true, also leads me to think that a RAID array implemented
> with software (which I didn't know) is less robust. I had chosen to
> implement a RAID-1 array to make my data more secure!
>
> That post also alludes to a 'nVidia hardware/BIOS/driver
> issue/conflict'....
>
> That fact that there are a number of posts/forums where there are issues
> with RAID arrays on this mobo doesn't look good.
>
>
>
> I am now going to try and only have the IDE cabled in and boot from the
> Acronis CD which should tell me more. If that doesn;t work, I'll attach
> the IDE HDD to the same cable my DVD drive is on .... maybe a bad IDE
> cable??? I'll tell you how I go.
>
>
> D.
>
> "Jim" <null@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:4Mgbf.17451$i%.12965@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Ok, I think have a decent "lay of the land" here on this problem. I'm
>> not
>> quite sure what you did to actually cause the failure of the SATA array
>> to
>> boot when the IDE drive is attached, but since you did manage to get the
>> transfer completed and drive wiped, what remains is finding some way to
>> get
>> your current SATA array backed up. I assume if your IDE drive is NOT
>> attached, the SATA array will still boot, correct?
>>
>> Two solutions, option #1 is straight-forward, but costs a few bucks.
>> Option
>> #2 is free, but slightly more complex.
>>
>> Option #1: Get yourself a cheap USB enclosure for your IDE HD. These can
>> be
>> had for $25-35 online (see Dealsonic.com, they have loads of 'em).
>> Because
>> the interface is USB, all you have to do is boot the SATA array, power up
>> the enclosure, and insert the USB cable. Windows will recognize it and
>> whalla, you have access to the storage for whatever purposes you like,
>> including imaging the OS on the SATA drive.
>>
>> Option #2 (should be done w/ SATA and IDE drives installed): Visit
>> http://www.bootitng.com and make yourself either a bootable floppy or CD.
>> Boot the floppy/CD, and when the Welcome screen appears, hit Cancel, and
>> follow the prompts until you reach the partition manager. Now use the
>> partition manager to COPY or IMAGE the SATA partition(s) over to the IDE
>> drive. It should be fairly intuitive, but if not, let me know and I'll
>> walk
>> you through the process.
>>
>> The reason this should work is because we never are getting far enough to
>> boot the SATA nor the IDE drive! Instead, the BootIt NG floppy or CD is
>> being booted FIRST. Therefore, we can gain access to both the HDs and at
>> least can perform a partition COPY or partition IMAGE operation from one
>> drive to the other. Of course, this doesn't solve the underlying
>> problem.
>> You'll still need to disconnect the IDE drive before booting the SATA
>> drive
>> to avoid the blue screens. BUT, you will at least have a copy of that
>> SATA
>> install on the IDE drive. Heck, you can even image copy the SATA drive
>> to
>> CD\DVD media if you prefer.
>>
>> Btw, I see no reason the IDE drive wouldn't be bootable as long as you
>> made
>> sure you COPIED (as opposed to IMAGED) the SATA partition(s) over to the
>> IDE
>> drive, AND, made sure that the partition was marked bootable. From the
>> partition manager, Hit "View MBR", and in the dialog, you will notice
>> four
>> entries in the MBR (Master Boot Record). Each entry w/ a non-zero
>> address
>> represents one of your COPIED partitions. Select the bootable partition
>> (usually the first MBR entry), hit "Set Active", and the partition will
>> indicate Active status. Now hit "Std MBR", this will initialize the boot
>> loader in the MBR. Finally, hit Apply to save the changes. At this
>> point,
>> the IDE drive *should* be bootable using the installation copied from the
>> SATA drive. Of course, I'm not sure that making the IDE drive bootable
>> is
>> really what you're after, I'm merely saying you could make it happen, if
>> that proves useful.
>>
>> But again, none of this addresses the underlying problem, I'm merely
>> suggesting how to solve the immediate problem of backing up the SATA
>> installation. At least the use of an external USB enclosure provides a
>> long
>> term solution by side-stepping the problem.
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> "D" <nomail@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:436d8c8e$0$44191$c30e37c6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Jim,
>>>
>>> This is a relatively new PC (6 months old) so your right, I probably
>> haven't
>>> experienced all the [disk/boot] issues which are particular to it.
>>>
>>> My primary concern is to get a full backup of my data. To do this, due
>>> to
>>> the size (80Gb), I need to get the second harddrive config'ed
>>> successfully
>>> without any Windows re-install.
>>>
>>> I have reformatted the IDE drive, to remove any issue with the old
>>> Windows
>>> install on it. (I can't remember if it was formatted with a
>> system-option;
>>> how do I tell?) It still blue screens and auto-restarts.
>>>
>>> I turned auto-restart off in my SATA-based Windows install; and know I
>>> can
>>> see the Blue Screen error:
>>>
>>> *** Begin***
>>> A problem has been detected and Windows has been shut down to prevent
>> damage
>>> to your computer.
>>>
>>> If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen, restart
>>> your
>>> computer. If this screen appears again, follow these steps:
>>>
>>> Check for viruses on your computer. Remove any newly installed hard
>>> drives
>>> or hard drive controllers. Check your hard drive to make sure it is
>> properly
>>> configured and terminated. Run CHKDSK /F to check for hard drive
>> corruption,
>>> and then restart your computer.
>>>
>>> Technical information:
>>>
>>> *** STOP: 0x0000007B (0xF79F7528, 0xC0000034, 0x00000000, 0x00000000)
>>> *** End***
>>>
>>> I then ran IBM's disk fitness against the IDE drive (with only the IDE
>>> attached by cables); this was successful (in both Quick Check and
>> long-check
>>> option).
>>>
>>> I tried another IBM IDE HDD and it errors with the exact same codes when
>>> connected with my SATA array.
>>>
>>> In all test cases, except where only the IDE HDD is attached, the SATA
>> array
>>> is the first boot device and the IDE the second.
>>>
>>> What puzzles me is that the IDE HDD used to be attached and visible and
>>> allow SATA-based Windows to boot successfully (The IDE HDD was added
>>> (physically) after the SATA-based HDD Windows was installed). This
>>> tends
>>> to indicate to me that it is a hardware issue; combined with the disk
>>> test
>>> and the other IDE also tested .... but not the particular IDE HDD.
>>>
>>> I am now trying cabling options (although I have it set as the master on
>>> a
>>> 80' cable by itself on the black-end of the cable, nothing on the
>>> middle-grey end and the blue attached to the m/b as it should be). I'll
>> try
>>> it on the IDE seperate IDE cable that the DVD burner is (and has always
>>> been) working on).
>>>
>>> D.
>>>
>>> "Jim" <null@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:7bhaf.16178$i%.11098@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> > It's always difficult in a case like this to be positive about what
>>> > happened. A lot of details here regarding boot sequence, what was
>>> > attached
>>> > prior and after OS installation, mobo idiosyncrasies, etc. That said,
>> it
>>> > sounds like you may have a case where the mobo drive assignments (C:,
>> D:,
>>> > etc.) are different when certain hardware components are attached.
>>> >
>>> > For example, I have several USB external HD enclosures. If I leave
>>> > them
>>> > running when I reboot my Abit AI7 mobo, then the "system" sees the
>>> > external
>>> > enclosure as the bootable drive, despite the fact I've told the BIOS
>>> > it
>>> > isn't. No matter what I do, if that USB external enclosure is
>>> > running,
>>> > the
>>> > system INSISTS on trying to boot it. So w/ every reboot, I have to
>>> > make
>>> > sure the enclosures are shutdown.
>>> >
>>> > The same thing could be occurring w/ your IDE channels. Your BIOS
>> and/or
>>> > Windows may be insisting that if anything is attached to the IDE
>>> > channels,
>>> > it must be the bootable item. Of course, we know it isn't. I suspect
>> the
>>> > reason it gets to the XP logo and craps out is because it's NOT the
>>> > new
>>> > install, but the OLD install that's trying to boot. The old install
>>> > doesn't
>>> > match the new hardware, and well..., all kinds of problems can creep
>>> > up
>>> > now.
>>> > The fact you added the IDE drive AFTER XP was installed may have
>>> > exacerbated
>>> > the problem too.
>>> >
>>> > I have several suggestions, perhaps none of them ideal. You could
>> install
>>> > XP on the RAID partition again, but this time make sure the IDE drive
>>> > is
>>> > attached and running at the time. XP will install the boot files on
>>> > the
>>> > IDE
>>> > drive, of course, but the OS will be running off the RAID/SATA drives
>>> > (probably as D:).
>>> >
>>> > Another option, if you want to force the RAID/SATA drive to be C: is,
>>> > install a boot manager on the PATA/IDE drive first (e.g., BootIt NG).
>>> > Only
>>> > requires a small 8-16mb partition. Now install XP on the RAID/SATA
>> drive.
>>> > When the system boots, it will boot the PATA/IDE drive, *but* that
>>> > will
>>> > only
>>> > boot the boot manager! From there, your boot manager can boot XP (as
>> C:).
>>> > This is what I've done on my system. I *always* use a small PATA
>>> > drive
>>> > for
>>> > my boot manager, which in turn boot various OS's from my RAID0
>> (stripped)
>>> > array (in my case, PATA/IDE too). I then use the remaining space on
>>> > the
>>> > PATA/IDE drive for additional partitions or storing image copies of
>>> > partitions on the other drives, so it doesn't go to waste.
>>> >
>>> > Bottomline is, I know this varies a bit from vendor to vendor, but
>>> > there
>>> > can
>>> > be problems in controlling boot order when mixing interfaces, despite
>>> > whether the BIOS settings might lead you to believe otherwise. Many
>>> > mobo's
>>> > insist on a particular sequence that *may* not jive with your
>> intentions.
>>> > And that's what I suspect has happened in your case. To circumvent
>>> > the
>>> > problem, I've simply made it a habit to maintain a small PATA/IDE
>>> > drive
>>> > for
>>> > my boot manager, then have the boot manager boot the various OS's I
>>> > have
>>> > installed. Sometimes you have to know when to NOT fight the system :)
>>> >
>>> > HTH
>>> >
>>> > Jim
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > "D" <nomail@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> > news:4368a201$0$44196$c30e37c6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> >>
>>> >> I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard.
>>> >>
>>> >> It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a
>> RAID
>>> > 1
>>> >> array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives.
>>> >>
>>> >> The O/S is Win XP SP2.
>>> >>
>>> >> All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my
>> old
>>> > PC
>>> >> (continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array).
>>> >>
>>> >> However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for
>>> >> backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to
>>> >> bring
>>> >> my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to
>> ensure
>>> > I
>>> >> had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The
>>> >> old
>>> >> install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had
>>> > occurred
>>> >> on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard
>>> >> succesfully).
>>> >>
>>> >> The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the
>> boot
>>> >> disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue
>>> >> screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and
>>> >> the
>>> >> system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was
>>> > stopped
>>> >> by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but
>>> >> then
>> I
>>> >> kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives
>>> >> (which
>>> >> after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped).
>>> >>
>>> >> All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able
>> to
>>> >> recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many
>> years
>>> >> and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done
>> it
>>> >> whilst having a RAID array.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array
>>> >> remaing
>>> >> the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data
>>> >> (too
>>> > much
>>> >> for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I
>> now
>>> >> know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically
>>> >> on
>>> >> crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of
>>> > cabling
>>> >> the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my
>> data.
>>> >>
>>> >> - Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old
>>> >> windows
>>> >> install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup
>> back?
>>> >> - Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or
>> add
>>> > it
>>> >> with specific considerations?
>>> >> - Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE
>> drive
>>> > in
>>> >> and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD?
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks in advance,
>>> >> D.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


.

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