Re: Fallout 3 no longer banned in Australia

Thus spake Mike S. <mike@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Wed, 03 Sep 2008 12:24:30 -0400, Anno
Domini:

On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:22:39 +1000, Nostromo <nospam@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

True, but millions of people having spiritual/religious awakenings & genuine
experiences of *some* sort can't be all wrong or delusional, can they?

I am sure that by now millions of people have seen ghosts and been
abducted by aliens as well. Some are delusional. Some want attention.
Some believe they genuinely saw something or got probed in the ass by
a little green man. <<shrug>> If I believe everything I hear, then I
have to believe *a lot* of crap. There is a reason why eyewitness
testimony is worthless in science. And it is a good reason.

If proof is what you need. Do we ask our spouses or children to prove their
love for us every single day? Do we ask our friends to prove everything they
tell us are not lies before we accept anything they tell us? Do we not
believe the 6 o'clock news almost every night, without a shred of real,
first-hand proof? I'd suggest a life lived on nothing but empirical or
demonstrable proof is a sad, lonely, pathetic & probably paranoid thing
indeed. YMMV.

Quite the contrary. There is beauty in truth. There is beauty in
something unfettered by any one group's view of how things are or
should be.

Sure. Tell me when someone actually finds such a thing that's *provable*
lol. I'm not even sure quantum mechanics, string theory, the big bang or
M-branes are anything but flights of fancy of physicists & mathematicians.
Sure, they seem to be plausible & have internal self-consistency, but only
based on the axioms we've accepted from science. We all know what happens
when we find out that the world is not flat, the earth is not the centre of
the universe, that classical physics is just an approximation & all of our
understanding of the macro world is based on fuzzy models. Science has
changed its mind many times through its short life & each time it's refined
ideas, some times to the point of negating prior 'truths'. Sure, the
principles of scientific discovery & proof/testing have mostly stood fast,
but have things like quantum physics really explained anything meaningful or
real to us about the nature of life & our universe/existence, or has it just
raised more questions...?

Just to re*** a little: there is even more beauty in something like a
person's true Faith, unfettered by any one's view of how things are or
should be. Faith is not just about finding some truth in order to invalidate
someone else's truths - quite to the contrary I believe that real Faith is
in finding a personal r/ship with one's higher power & finding a way to
integrate that into everyday life, not just scientific theories, which let's
face it, mostly affect us indirectly at best. And I have personally found
that the strongest articles of Faith are grounded in reason, meaning &
experience, not blind fanaticism, as seems to be prevalent in a lot of the
US bible belt bashers, from what a lot of you here seem to be saying, more's
the pity.

The bible tells us that humans are unique. That we were put here
directly by god. That we truly have nothing in common with the animals
and plants that are all around us. And that we are a sinful species
with dirty souls to boot.

That's quite wrong I'm sorry have to tell you. It's a gross
oversimplification/bastardisation _at best_, total & complete
misunderstanding/ignorance/literalism at worst. I'll let you decide which,
but be warned, you'll end up no better off than the fundies, just with
opposite polarity. :)

Science shows us that we are connected to every living thing won the
planet through evolution. Science shows us the *struggle* we went
through to get where we are. Everything from saber-tooth tigers to

Science speculates & draws correlations at best in the areas of evolution.
It's had, what, a couple hundred years at best of direct observation? There
are so many scientists with differing or even opposing POVs on this topic,
that most sensible ones now relegate most Darwinism & traditional
evolutionary views to articles of faith. It's amusing how they've come full
circle really. :)
My point is, for every learned scientist I can find you half a dozen
nutbags. How do you decide which one to believe? Sounds good test? It's what
I want to hear rationale? Doesn't agree with my world view so I reject it
out of hand? There are theories & scientific tests that espouse that there
is no free choice/will - that all our decisions are generically
'pre-destined' & predictable with some fairly compelling evidence that
support their cases. What if they're right & all our musings are just so
many biochemical reactions leading inexorably towards entropic doom? If it's
true, will knowing it make your life better or more worthwhile? Just some
food for thought ;)

mammoths to ice ages to super volcanoes to competition with other
hominids. Homo Sapiens fought tooth and nail to get where we are. The
odds were always against us. And yet, here we are. This is something
to be proud of.

Science is yet to discover not only our missing link, but missing links
between every major species of animal. The theories I've heard to explain
this away sound like rationalisations & hypotheticals more than any concrete
scientific deductions. Who's right in the absence of definitive evidence,
the creationists who claim every major species was created separately, or
evolutionists who fill in the blanks to suit their theories & missing
evidence? Of course, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but you get my point
hopefully.

We know these things because of the empirical demonstrable proof that
you write off as being sad and pathetic. I call bull***.

I wasn't referring to the fossil record, but I probably couldn't pick too
many scientific 'proofs' more easily debunked if I really wanted to play
that game with you. I call wishful thinking. It is quite sad though when
so-called lay-scientists fall far short of their own stringent burdens of
'proof' when it suits their own ends. ;-p
If someone could show me direct, incontrovertible proof that God doesn't
exist I would have likely taken a different path in life. As it stands, I
have a wealth of first-hand experience of the workings of the Creator in
this world & in my life, & as real a relationship with him as I have with
anyone else. You & everyone else is welcome to discount this as having an
imaginary friend if you must, but if nothing else, at least I'm never lonely
:).

--
Nostromo
.