Re: Excellent article - gameplay vs glitz etc

Thus spake Mean_Chlorine <mike_noren2002@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Sun, 13 Nov
2005 19:46:51 +0100, Anno Domini:

>Thusly Nostromo <nostromo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Spake Unto All:
>
>>WOW! You tell a mean tale MC! Shame you have no proof for your conjectures,
>>only that you spin this yarn from what you know of (semi)modern day cults &
>>can piece together on the basis of the axiom you've started with + a healthy
>>dose of cynicism thrown in for good measure ;)
>
>I have the bible, some ancillary historical info, and I have the
>present-day cults. You can of course disagree with my interpretations,
>e.g. say that Jesus really did hear the voice of God, not just had
>hallucinations as schizophreniacs do, or that the early christian
>church was nothing like a charismatic cult, but I don't think there's
>anything in there that's factually wrong.

Well, he claimed to be the Son of God, in fact God Himself, incarnate. Not
that he heard any voices, though his link with his Father is mysterious at
best. As far as I can tell he WAS a man, in all senses of the word. He had
to pray for guidance, strength & Faith, just as any Christian would today.
He didn't 'hear' voices, nor see visions (well, except for that one time ;).
It was his Faith in his Father & of course his freedom from Original Sin
that set him apart from all other men & his ultimate purpose & sacrifice.
And then there's the Holy Spirit, which is a whole nother volume, so let's
not go there & say we did, ey? ;)

>>Btw, Nietzsche started with the same premise - & ended up miserable &
>>insane.
>
>Yes, and Hitler was a christian who ended up torching europe (although
>to be fair, as his insanity grew he became less christian and more
>pagan).

Well, if we were to count all the lunatics that claimed to be Christians,
right down to 99% of tv evangelists, we'd be here for a long time. It's hard
being in a majority sometimes - ppl pick on you, ya know? ;-p

>>It's not a pretty world where meaning is only in the things we can
>>see or touch or get our hands on imho.
>
>Oh, I disagree. In the words of Douglas Adams: "Isn't it enough to see
>that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are
>fairies at the bottom of it too?"
>
>>Where there is no Faith, there can be
>>no meaning.
>
>Depends on what one puts into the concept of 'meaning'.
>For a christian, the meaning of life is to overcome the trials and
>temptations put before him in this short miserable life, to live
>righteously and after death be rewarded by an eternity in Heaven.

I think you're confusing me with a Catholic lol! Don't do it again, m'kay?
;-p

>According to me, the _ultimate_ meaning of all lifeforms is as simply
>vehicles to propagate genes. The _proximate_ meaning of life, as it
>concerns MY particular life, or any individual humans life, is to
>enjoy my life as best I can, and to do what I want to do as long as it
>doesn't cause suffering or harm to others.

Ahhh, the 'ol Golden Rule. I could drive a convoy of trucks through THAT one
with my eyes closed, but I don't want to insult your world view or belief
system because I like you MC. >8^D

>We're only here for a very short while and we're little more than
>sock-puppets of our genes, so why not make the best of it?

Well, why not indeed! After all, God told us to be fruitful & multiply, to
find life a joy (whether we like it or not :) & to make a Heaven on Earth,
as much as the Fall permits. Personally, I think we're headed for some nasty
weather, but I try to live in this world & not be of it, as has been
strongly suggested to me.

>Now, I would _like_ to believe in an afterlife. Our lives are so very
>short, eternity is so very long, and it annoys me to think of all the
>things I will never get to see or know. It would be nice to meet
>departed loved ones again.

First of all, eternity has no 'length'. I'll let you mull on that one. ;) An
afterlife as is perceived by the secular world is a very Catholic version
usually. He said he would create a new Heaven & a new Earth. He also said to
us "I tell you, you are as Gods". Imagine coming back as an omnipotent,
resurrected being in charge of your own Creation(s) & yet being among an
almost infinite number of your peers? Whatever the answer, the only thing
I'm sure of is that our minds are not equipped to comprehend but a very
small part of it.

>And I would _like_ that we weren't left to our own devices, that there
>was a God to catch us if we fall.
>
>But to me that's all it is: a pleasant, comforting, fantasy.

So what is it to me? If Truth is relative, & not absolute as I believe it to
be, then everyone like myself must be either
a) delusional
b) a liar
c) a dumb patsy
d) all of the above?

>>Emperor Augustine said "Faith does not proceed from
>>understanding; understanding proceeds from Faith". Of course, you cannot
>>accept this (or even fully understand this) from your vantage point.
>
>Oh yes, many prominent christians have said words to this effect, e.g:
>
>"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the
>aid of spiritual things, but -more frequently than not- struggles
>against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from
>God." [Martin Luther]

Is that the same reason that started the holocaust & killed 12+ million or
the one that killed 20 million of one's own in an insatiable lust for power
& attempt to wipe out religion? The same 'reason' that dropped a couple
nukes on an enemy already broken & ready to surrender?

You see 'reason' is just as often an excuse for evil men to do evil deeds,
as is 'God' in the hands of a cult, heresy or political madman.

Men choose to do Good or Evil - I would suggest to you that that choice
cannot be made on 'reason' alone because one can *never* have all the facts
or all the motivations/knowledge/secrets as our disposal. Just because we
read the papers we think we're informed. Just because we saw our married
friend having dinner with a strange woman means we know he must be cheating,
not out on business. Why do leave our wallet on the kitchen bench at a
friend's but never at a stranger's house? Just because all the atheists out
there reason that this life is all there is, why do they do nothing to leave
a mark, to remain in loved one's memories?
What I'm getting at is epistemological: *everything* we _know_ requires a
leap of faith in some way, on every step of life, with every fibre of our
being. Even the axioms we accept as fundamental to our reasoning powers. I
see the US on the tv every day, yet I have never been there, never
experienced it, never seen it, yet I take it on faith (with some reason for
good measure :) that it exists, has real ppl in it, & is not some big Truman
Show hoax perpetrated on me. You see, I think God created it that way
purposefully, to show us the Faith at work in everything we know &
experience, so that everything can either become meaningless & nonsensical,
OR, with a little bit of faith it can make sense, with complete & utter
surrender & a complete & total Leap of Faith it can transform our lives &
add total Reason & Meaning to everything!

(It is serendipitous that you quote Luther actually - the man who put REASON
back into Christianity - oh the irony! ;)

>This position (that the Faith is right and any contradictory evidence
>necessarily wrong), is my biggest problem with christianity, because
>it is the reason that something like 60% of the US public still think
>that the Earth was created in 7 days some 4000 years ago, and it is
>the sole motivator behind the present scientifically bankrupt but
>heavily funded 'irreducible complexity' movement in the US.

Irrelevant really. If you want to put God on trial then do so, but don't use
a fallen, broken world full of fallen, broken, sinful people to deny
yourself of your rightful Creator & the intended r/ship with Him ffs! Call
Him to account directly. If you're not too chicken! ;-p

>Because, in the words of Galileo Galilei:
>"I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin
>not with the Scriptures, but with experiments, and demonstrations."

Well, he was a Catholic, though the church almost proclaimed him a heretic,
before he recanted of course. I'd rather take the true heretic in Luther any
day! :)

>>favourite passage btw ;). I will remember you in my prayers, so long as you
>>remember me in your flames occasionally, or this place may become a very
>>dull place indeed! ;)
>
>Oh, I'm an equal-opportunity flamer, so there's little risk of me
>forgetting to gently barbecue you from time to time.

But most certainly! :)

>>Now, Resident Evil - sequel good as original if not better. I mean, what's
>>better than one hot chick with guns & lotsa bad tude? Why TWO hot chicks of
>>course! >8^D
>
>Very good point.

I occasionally have them. Sometimes I just don't realise it myself until
somebody tells me....errr...:-/

>>>(The worst in this regard was surely the Matrix movies. The first one
>>>had soooo many possibilities, but they ended up doing nothing at all
>>>with it. Shame.)
>>
>>Yuppers. Damn shame. Animatrix was 10 times better than the last 2 movies
>>rolled together. Someone should redo them as an animated flic & re-release
>>as "The Matrix: The True Story".
>
>IMO they should release The Matrix IV: The Awakening, where it's found
>that Neo was kidnapped by the Machines, and everything since then has
>happened in a simulated reality to get him to give up the position of
>Zion.

Oh, I like it!!!

--
A killfile is a friend for life.

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.

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