Re: HPGCC Questions ladies and gentlemen!!!

Hello,

Paul Schlyter wrote:
In article <1142382780.841076.39970@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Claudio Lapilli <pleasedontspam@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello,

Frank Pittel wrote:
Paul Schlyter <pausch@xxxxxxx> wrote:
In article <q7-dne35zqjBg4nZRVn-pA@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Frank Pittel <fwp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Claudio Lapilli <pleasedontspam@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi,

: Frank Pittel wrote:
:<...>
:>
:> Even better then learning C with "any compiler" learn C with gcc. :-)
:>

: Yes, but we all know gcc is not the friendliest compiler for a person
: who is just starting with C. Of course getting familiar with the gnu
: tools is a plus if you are going to use hpgcc, but If I had to choose a
: free compiler to learn C today I would choose MS Visual C++ Express
: Edition. ANSI C has been deprecated but it's still there and the IDE
: makes it a lot easier on a rookie.

I don't know that gcc isn't a friendly compiler.

You can usually consider the phrase "not friendly" as a synonym for
"not GUI". Of course this expression is mostly used by people who
are addicted to GUI's.

I figured that was the meaning when Claudio recommended a MS compiler.

By "not-friendly" I mean you need to learn the tools first, then the C
language. When I recommended another compiler was simply because that
way people can focus on learning the C language without having to worry
about the tools.

I think you got it wrong when you assume that MS Visual C++ need not
be learnt.... :-) If someone encounters it for the very first time, and
has little or no experience with IDE's in general and the MSVC++ IDE in
particular, it can be quite confusing.

Using gcc from the beginning can be discouraging for first-timers
because it takes longer to get your first program running.

Nah -- it'll take a minute or so, assuming you know how to use some
text editor. It just requires three simple steps:

1. Create the program with your favourite text editor, call it, say, hello.c
2. gcc hello.c
3. ./a.out

That's it! What's the great obstacle here? Learning to use some text
editor of your choice? OK, that'll take five minutes, not just one... :-)

Please see my other post about my experience with gcc.


I don't intend to start a flame war IDE vs. CLI, I use both to get the
best of both worlds (the Windows distro of hpgcc has a very nice IDE,
by the way).
Also, an IDE gives some extra tools like syntax hilighting +
auto-completion

A decent text editor gives you that too. My personal favourite is
Epsilon, which is available for several different platforms.

OK, so if you use an editor with all these features, what's so wrong
with adding a keyboard shortcut that will compile (and run) the program
with a single hit instead of having to type it every time? (that makes
it an IDE), and also error postprocessing so you can browse your
compiler errors and it takes you straight to the file and line where
the problem is? I think simple things like that is what makes an IDE
more "friendly" for beginners.


+ quick access to help + compiler error postprocesing +
easy access to compiler options + one-hit compile and link + project
management +...

Project management is nothing exclusive to IDE's -- there are many
project management tools to choose among.

Yes, but what's so wrong about having project management tools
integrated with the editor if you are going to use them anyway?
You can get all these things separate, but the idea of "Integrated
Development Environment" is to put it all together, isn't it?


on top of that, often a debugger.

I would never use an IDE if it lacked a debugger !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On hpgcc for example you have no choice, and an IDE without debugger is
better than no IDE at all. PN2 provides nice integration with gcc in
error postprocessing, which to me is reason enough to use it even
without a debugger.


As a matter of fact, when porting C code to the Visual C++ compiler, I
frequently build it using a separate editor, and the MSVC command-line
tools including nmake. I then use the IDE only as a debugger.

That's reasonable if you have the code already written and organized
with makefiles. But if you are using the debugger, why not also having
a project file in the IDE so you can compile and debug just by hitting
one key?



The main disadvantage of an IDE is that it's almost always single platform.
That matters little to the beginner of course, but it can be a great
disadvantage to those pros who are trying to get their code running on
several different platforms.

Yes, I agree. Project files are never compatible so you need to
recreate them for each platform. That can be a pain, although a
beginner will never see anything like that.


All that can make
things a lot simpler for beginners (and also for pros, of course).

IDE's being simpler for beginners really was the case a number of
years ago. But nowadays the IDE's try to do almost everything. This
make them so overburdened with features that it's easy to get lost if
you're not used to that particular IDE - and that is quite relevant to
beginners.

Maybe it seems quite natural to me because I'm used to it. I simply
think that autocompletion, dynamic help, etc. would make an easier
start (overall), than just a plain text editor and a command line
compiler.

Claudio

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: OPINION: What are the best Linux C++ IDEs out there?
    ... or the benefits of an IDE? ... The compiler then can analyze all declarations in a project, ... How else would it be possible to jump in the editor from the use ... This feature exists within xemacs, ...
    (comp.os.linux.development.apps)
  • Re: HPGCC Questions ladies and gentlemen!!!
    ... Frank Pittel wrote: ... free compiler to learn C today I would choose MS Visual C++ Express ... ANSI C has been deprecated but it's still there and the IDE ... Create the program with your favourite text editor, call it, say, hello.c ...
    (comp.sys.hp48)
  • Re: MFC under VS2010
    ... the IDE that started with VS2005 and continued into VS2008 have not been fixed, ... So if you liked the old piece of crap, ... new editor, because it is the same piece of crap, reimplemented. ... OTOH, the compiler supports the latest C++, including the ability to use "lambda ...
    (microsoft.public.vc.mfc)
  • Re: OPINION: What are the best Linux C++ IDEs out there?
    ... >compiler as you described in the previous paragraph. ... You just describe the difference between an IDE and a collection of loosely ... OTOH just that competition is an evolutionary force, which I often miss in free ... An IDE, or any useful code editor, should assist by reducing the ...
    (comp.os.linux.development.apps)
  • Re: good c compiler
    ... Comes with good IDE+resource editor, ... Project management, utilities included. ... Compiler has extensive math library. ... Language accepted is C99. ...
    (comp.lang.c)