Re: If you think you must modify the hash, think again

Peter Michaux wrote:
On Mar 21, 4:09 pm, David Mark <dmark.cins...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Peter Michaux wrote:
On Mar 21, 3:22 pm, David Mark <dmark.cins...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Sure they are! I write applications for them every day. What I don't
do is program for failure by designing applications that must rely on a
heart-stopping number of hacks to shoehorn everything into one document
(and then barely work in a handful of observed environments and doing
God knows what in unknown environments).

Putting a whole company's worth of tools into a single page certainly
doesn't work. Having GMail, Adsense, and Maps all in the same page
would be lunacy.

Yes. That would be taking the strategy to an obscene extreme (which is
the polar opposite of what I advocate).

GMail all in one page is not lunacy.

I didn't say it was. But you have to stop and think: what is a page?

It is great for
the user with sufficient horsepower and bandwidth.

I don't really see why you would need any extreme horsepower or
bandwidth to read and write email from a Web document (or documents).
But then, if Google wrote it... :) Why does everyone want to use
Google as an example. It's such a self-defeating proposition.

For others they do
provide a stripped down client.

Of course they do. They couldn't write a non-behemoth, so they ended up
writing a whole extra application. And, as is well-documented, they
have enough trouble maintaining one.



Use
as an application platform is increasing, not decreasing.
Yes, until something more appropriate replaces Web browsing as the
application platform of choice (the Apple iPhone apps are a step in that
direction, which is why Apple doesn't even bother with a MobileMe
website). ;)

I would take Web apps in Safari over iPhone apps any day both from a
user and developer perspective.

I don't follow. Are you comparing desktop Safari to mobile Webkit?
That's apples and grapes.



Setting location.hash is a fine idea and I appreciate applications
like Gmail and Yahoo! Maps that use the technique.
We've been over this. It is not a fine idea. It is a completely
backwards Wile E. Coyote type idea.

:) Acme JavaScript Library.

Yep. It's what I call the Cult Of Programming by Observation and not
Understanding a Thing (COPOUT).

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=7622124



Look at all of the ridiculous hoops you must jump through just to create
a half-ass cross-browser application.

Not really. These days, just set the location hash and poll it.

That doesn't work in IE < 8 (or IE8's various compatibility modes),
which is a real downer as the Dojo folks (for example) often find
themselves recommending the forcing of compatibility mode (via a META)
to make applications built with older Dojo's (predating IE8 observation
marathons and re-workings) to "work".

http://n3.nabble.com/What-is-the-latest-on-Defect-10491-tp463125p463125.html

And don't click that link in the latest Opera unless you enjoy needless
aggravation. :)

Speaking of that bunch, get a load of this all-in-one-page wonder:-

http://www.dojofoundation.org/

This is what I'm talking about. All of those eyes (and hands) and where
are the brains? :)

For
users of new browsers the back button will work to navigate though the
DHTML page changes.

You said it. New browsers? Many users don't know what a browser is,
let alone that there are new ones. You can't force the general public
to update browsers and that fact should be considered from the start of
any design slated for the Web.

For users of old browsers, the experience will be
different.

Ain't that the truth? Broken would better describe the experience in
many common cases (and I'm talking about major browsers in heavy use today).

Hitting the back button might mean going back a genuine
page.

Having dealt with a project that did this recently, I can tell you it
may do all sorts of bizarre things. Going back to a "genuine page" is
the least of the worries. The fact is, the history gets all out of
sync, which breaks many useful browser features (e.g. the bookmarking
that seems to be the biggest concern of such designs). And the
inescapable truth is that there is virtually always a better way
(meaning one that does not break browsers for no good reason).

So what? That' is not the end of the world.

What is? Some say we will find out in a couple of years, but they are
likely just as nutty as those who think Web applications are the wave of
the future for anyone but hobbyists and scientists. ;)

This way the
application is not dependent on location hash setting but most users
can benefit from it.


Nice thought, but it doesn't match up with reality.
.

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