Re: Is Forth more focused on detail rather than on concept?

Stephen Pelc wrote:
Why is ANS unsuitable? Give examples, not hand-waving please.

IMHO, the situation now is not as bad as it was, because Forth200x reopened
the standardization process, so people like me who write their own Forth
can move ahead, and drag the rest with us. ANS is so 1990s, and using
proprietary extensions sucks a lot. E.g. the VFX port for MINOS has 1500
lines of extensions I need to make to VFX before I can start using it (most
of them are small files, apart from OOF, which is 50% of those 1500 lines),
and another 1500 lines of just platform specific code in the form of C
bindings. The next port will have those 1500 lines again, because the next
platform will have another different C interface (the next port is to
Gforth, and will use the CC-based C interface).

The good thing from an exercise like porting MINOS is that I can push
certain things through even faster than with Forth200x, at least with
MPE ;-).

The problem with ANS Forth is that it is incomplete. You either need a
system that comes with the extensions you need, or you need carnal
knowledge to implement these extensions - like C library access, which is
vital for any real project in a hosted environment. So the gunslingers
prefer to write their own system, because there they have the carnal
knowledge, and don't have to carry arbitrary baggage around (e.g. in
Gforth, we have requirements for high portability, which is a baggage I
don't have in bigForth). They need to implement only the 90% they need, so
it is always a lot easier.

The other option is: Take a popular open source Forth system where you can
get into fast enough (usually problematic; either it is complex, but
provides most of the features required, or it is simple, but lacking
features), and where you can become part of the team, so that it is both
*your* Forth *and* widely used. But you still have to carry the baggage of
this system around, because it's not tailored to your needs.

Sorry for the somewhat grumpy rant, but MPE (and other commercial
vendors) are regularly called in to rescue the left-overs of
cowboy/gunslinger projects. The major problem is nearly always the
lack of project management by the client and contractor.

Guess what: You'll never be called to rescue left-overs of a properly
managed project. What you see is self-selected. When you offer help, you
will be called by people who need help, not by those who can help
themselves. You need a dung beetle mentality for job satisfaction: the heap
of shit is your meal. But in reality, Stephen, you have the same gunslinger
mentality as we all, so you are grumpy ;-).

--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/
.

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