Re: a relational database done in forth would r0ck

Bernd Paysan wrote:
John Passaniti wrote:
So it's the approach and not the language that provides the performance
you admire. And that performance comes from implementing only what is
needed. Of course, the question of what is needed is relative.

I would tend to agree on that, but I know better from real world stories,
including this web-server-on-Forth thing: Two of the people in the Munich
Forth group implemented a smart card with an embedded web server in Forth -
one was responsible for porting Gforth EC to it, and the other to rewrite
the web server (it was a complete rewrite - that's completely ok, the main
purpose of such small web servers is to give people the idea *how* to code
purpose-specific software). There was another guy from that company also
working on the project, so in total three people.

They succeeded to build a demo, and then upper management decided to create
a real product; first thing they choose is to switch to Java instead, and
then put a lot more people on the project. They failed to deliver even what
the Forth-based demo could do.

I'm not sure how this "real world story" negates the point (the "but" in your first sentence) I made and that you "tend" to agree with. My point is that approach matters far more than language. You gave a story that doesn't indicate that the Java-based solution followed the same approach as the Forth-based demo. Instead, you stated they changed language and added people; you stated nothing about the similarity taken in the approach. So how does your "real world story" invalidate the point?

You can often implement Forth-like strategies in other languages to get to
the same effect. However, you have to know these strategies.

These strategies *are* known. If they are actually followed is a separate matter. Most of the strategies commonly associated with Forth programmers are part of modern software development practice. Agile methodologies in particular echo virtually every "best practice" Forth programmers have.

Those who care more about keeping score or passing out awards will note that Forth was there first, pushing forward this agenda years ago. Yea! Those who care more about results don't care about historical timelines-- they just follow these strategies and get the same results regardless of language.

It also needs to be pointed out the key here is knowing the strategies, not using Forth. This is the point I don't think gavino gets. He (and plenty of others) seems to think that if you merely recode an application in Forth, it magically gets smaller, faster, better. These people confuse the tool for the skill in using the tool. They are the same people who think if they go to the hardware store and buy the most sophisticated woodworking tools, they will instantly become world-class carpenters.

> Often enough,
it's then easier to do it in Forth, instead of making another language
behave as much like Forth as you need for the project (typically, you need
at least some text interpreter).

I make no argument against the idea that doing Forth-like things in Forth is best. My argument is that "Forth-like" really has little to do with Forth.
.

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