Re: Copyleft and embedded Forth

In article <87zluctxgm.fsf@xxxxxxxx>, Aleksej Saushev <asau@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
byron@upstairs.(none) (Byron Jeff) writes:

In article <8763x2vtc7.fsf@xxxxxxxx>, Aleksej Saushev <asau@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
byron@upstairs.(none) (Byron Jeff) writes:

In article <8763x3xnri.fsf@xxxxxxxx>, Aleksej Saushev <asau@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Jean-François Michaud" <cometaj@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes:


[Getting too long. Snipping...]

That's about it. All the complexity comes in when trying to mix those
rules with closed source software.

The complexity comes when trying to mix those rules with any software,
except GPLd. This means the software isn't free,

Back to the same question I asked earlier: Free for whom?

For anyone except copyright holder and dumb user. Isn't it clear?

No it isn't. Any right asserted to one party will interfere with the
rights of another.

Every right you give to a developer takes away a right from the user.

That's apparently wrong. Developer may do with p.d. work anything
he likes, and user may do with p.d. work whatever he wishes,
except claiming copyright or authorship.

But there's no interaction between the two. And that's the problem.

Start with a P.D. base A. To you it's free because both the developer
and the user can get that base. But what happens when the developer
modifies that base to produce A+B? Since P.D. software has no asserted
copyright, then the user's access to A+B (which cannot exist with A) is
limited to whatever the developer decides to encumber that combination.

In the GPL sense of free, both the base and modifications have the same
level of access. That's what makes the software free. But to do that you
have the limit the rights of the modifiers, so that users/developers
that receive the modifications downstream (A+B) have the same access as
the developer who received base A.

The GPL is designed to protect end user rights at the expense of
developers and redistributors.

It isn't. End user is forced to pay lawyer consultant to understand
how he can modify work.

The end user can modify anything they want. The end user needs to
distribute those modifications when they distrubute the modified
product. Exactly how hard is that?

Note, that end user tends to use _any_
software tool (even acquired illegally) without licence segregation.

Use isn't an issue with any free software license. It's all about
distribution.

So, end user is forced to either consult lawyer before he shares
modified work, or take a risk of being sued by FSF for violating
some unclear or even illegal point in their licence.

So we agree that it's distribution. Share the modifications. End of
story.

In each and every instance that the FSF gets involved, the source for
modifications have not been distributed. No lawyer is required if you
are not violating the license.

to tell more,
the issues are much worse than with classic BSD: even when you
have more free license, you have to deliver not the simple list
of contributors but the whole unmodified source of components to
the user, who doesn't care about what have you used, and doesn't
want to see the guts.

It doesn't matter what the end user wants. It's the developers
responsibility to deliver according to the license.

The problem is that it's a slipperly slope. Presuming that the end user
doesn't want source means thinking that you don't need to deliver it.

If you can't read, maybe you should quit the discussion.

I can read just fine thank you. You are saying that why bother
delivering source when the user doesn't want it. I am telling why you
need to deliver the source even when the user doesn't want it.

I have told that GPL imposes problematic limitations.

Then don't use it. You have to choose to use GPL software. If it's
restrictions causes you problems, then simply don't use it. Either find
software that is under a license that doesn't cause you problems, or
negotiate a license with the copyright holders that releases you from
the limitations that the GPL imposes.

I don't like commercial closed source licenses. You don't hear me saying
that those licenses should be banned because I don't have access to the
source and that I can't redistribute their product as I see fit. I
either don't user their software or try to negotiate some other
arrangement.

RMS threatened everyone around, that BSD (original) is problematic
for its acknowledgement requirement, which is less than 5-line note
"This software includes parts..." He replaced it with requirement
to distribute the whole source instead, the source, which carries
the repetitive "This is free software..." text. The provision of
the source via public accessible media isn't sufficient to him.

Why not? To quote from the GPL FAQ:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#AnonFTPAndSendSources

-----------------------------------
I want to distribute binaries via physical media without accompanying
sources. Can I provide source code by FTP?

Version 3 of the GPL allows this; see option 6(b) for the full
details. Under version 2, you're certainly free to offer source via
FTP, and most users will get it from there. However, if any of them
would rather get the source on physical media by mail, you are
required to provide that.
-----------------------------------
I want to make binaries available for anonymous FTP, but send sources
only to people who order them.

If you want to distribute binaries by anonymous FTP, you have to
distribute sources along with them.
-----------------------------------
How can I make sure each user who downloads the binaries also gets the
source?

You don't have to make sure of this. As long as you make the source
and binaries available so that the users can see what's available
and take what they want, you have done what is required of you. It
is up to the user whether to download the source.

Our requirements for redistributors are intended to make sure
the users can get the source code, not to force users to
download the source code even if they don't want it.
-----------------------------------

In each case it's publicly accessible media, is it not?

Then modifications start to get distributed without source.

It's easy to get the source, build it and check, whether
software carries unknown modifications. The only additional
step is getting the source.

This is a long thread. What are we arguing about? As the FAQ outlined
above, as long as you make the source available to the user, then your
obligation is finished.

What exactly is RMS and the FSF asking someone to do that's such a
problem?

It's not 2-3 line "This contains parts of
software written by John Doe and contributors," it is the same
full page "THIS IS FREE SOFTWARE" advertising in each file.

That's not how the GPL works.

Oh, really?
Have you _ever_ read the source of any GNU tool?

Yes. I've written, modified, and released GPL software. So yes I have
read the source.

Have you _ever_ read that same GPL to the end?

Yes again. Along with the accompanying FAQs. More importantly unlike a
lot of folks, I've worked real hard to understand the intent behind the
structure of the licenses. So I understand why the BSD license is
often lacking and that often the GPL is too restrictive. I understand why the
LGPL works great for infrastructure on the desktop, but fails when
transferred to embedded systems. I've even made attempts at writing my
own free licenses that embodies the set of principles that I'd like to
convey. The CDDL license is very close to what I was trying to write.


"If the program is interactive, make it output a short notice like
this when it starts in an interactive mode:

"Gnomovision version 69, Copyright (C) YYYY NAME OF AUTHOR
Gnomovision comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type
`show w'. This is free software, and you are welcome to
redistribute it under certain conditions; type `show c' for details."

Again it's intent that's the issue. The notice is designed to ensure
that the end user is aware of their rights.

And as usual if you have a problem with it, then don't use the license
or software that's under it. You always have that right.

And each file should carry even longer advertising, that it's
"free" software.

How can it be free if the end user isn't aware that it's free? That's
why every time you bring this up, I ask "Free to whom?". The GPL
purposefully and intensely asserts every right of the end user while in
fact suppressing the rights of intermediaries to that end user. The end
user who gets software must have access to the source of that exact
software (including any intermediate modifications), and be aware of
their rights. Each and every portion of the GPL supports that. To do
that impositions are made on developers so that end users get their
rights and know about it.


Questions like:

"I received the source for a GPL program. Can I make changes and sell
the changed program without giving up the source for my changes?"

Have you read my message? I don't ask such simple questions.
I _don't_ make any changes to GPL components, I deliver those source
to end user (with questions "WTF you waste my bandwidth for this
stuff?", rarely with addition "If I wanted it, I know about gnu.org
and google.com."),i

So simply make the offer for source. That's all you need to do.

In written form? Thanks! It just proves that GPL is licence for lawyers,
not for users nor for developers either.

Sigh. I think our conversation is running out of steam. The offer
asserts the right for users to have access to the source of the GPL
software they are using. It's the developers responsibility to make it
convenient to access that source for a period of time. Hence the offer.

Why does that make it a license for lawyers?

so what's the difference between LGPL and GPL?

For the LGPL's code itself, virtually nothing. The difference is that
LGPL allows other licensed code to use it.

GPL isn't different, if you don't take RMS' meaning for words,
rather natural one.

Maybe that's why you think it's a lawyers license. So tell me why it
isn't different?

All the nuances come in when trying to determine if something is a
derivative. Anything that isn't standalone, requires either
recompilation or relinking to change, is considered derivative.
Most of the derivative issue is based around rule #2.

dlopen/dlsym/dlclose isn't relinking, using external linker is my own,
internal problem, GNU has nothing to do with that.

You have code in the same process space as GPL code. So that combined
entity is a derivative work of the GPL code. So it all has to be GPL.

No, it isn't. GPLd code is clearly separated from any other code,
the code remains functional, when the library is replaced by any
other one with similar interface. Non-GPLd part doesn't need to
have any deep knowledge about GPLd part and vice versa.
Memory space doesn't matter, it is the same memory on this system,
either logically (as concept) and physically (as device).

It does matter. Obviously the dynamic library offers functionality to
the whole work, otherwise it has no reason to exist. It exists in the
same process memory space as the GPL work. Presumably the DLL cannot
function as a standalone component without the GPL work.

It's a derivative. It needs to be GPLed. Or alternatively rewrite all
of the GPLed code under a different license.

This is what I'm talking about when I say intent. You've given an
example of deliberate code segregation specifically for the purpose of
not having to deliver source for part of the code.

That's why you have to have licenses with all the legalese.

If you don't know the law, you ought to go and learn it,
as for now you're just another liar.

I'm done. This is tiring.

BAJ
.

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