Re: effective emacs

David Kastrup <dak@xxxxxxx> writes:

Paul Donnelly <paul-donnelly@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

David Kastrup <dak@xxxxxxx> writes:

Paul Donnelly <paul-donnelly@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

David Kastrup <dak@xxxxxxx> writes:

It rather sounds like you should get and install a modern version of
Emacs compiled for Gtk+. You are preaching to the choir, a choir
that has not only already seen the light but actually nailed it down
long ago. Ok, I get carried away on my analogies.

What do I get out of that? A silly menu bar and a right-click buffer
menu that never lines up right because its formatting assumes a
fixed-width font?

Right click marks a region end. I am not sure what you are thinking
about. Emacs deals pretty well with proportional fonts in general.

I was thinking of my own personal config, which binds mouse-3 to
'mouse-buffer-menu, which I like having, but which doesn't display well
at all due to using spaces or tabs or something for alignment.

M-x report-emacs-bug RET

IMO, it could do with regularization and simplification here. My own
leaning is to take a hint from Plan 9's Acme, providing the ability to
execute selected text as a command, as well as a special place to put
a few commands, and to eliminate most hotkeys altogether. The
rationale being that it's best to perform all command invocation with
one system, that words are easier to remember than hotkey sequences,

Words consist of letters, so you still have to remember the letters. At
some point of time, hotkey sequences get ingrained, and then they are
more efficient than typing out everything. If you want to type out
everything, the "Menu" key on typical keyboards does the same as M-x.

People don't remember written words letter-by letter any more than they
remember spoken words phoneme by phoneme. You're saying you would
remember the sequence "jurdcvtyokmesxg" as easily as you would remember
"three red crows"? You'd learn it eventually if you had to type it all
the time, just like you have learned a lot of hotkey sequences, but with
one exposure, which one will you nail three days later?

I'm more concerned with that really useful command that doesn't get
enough use for the keystroke to be ingrained, but which could be given a
totally logical name. A name that I'd be more likely to remember, after
using it on a few occasions, than I am to remember a meaningless
hotkey. And no, I won't name an example, because I know it has happened
to you, and I seriously doubt you have memorized every single hotkey in
every mode you use. You know it has happened to me, and you know I will
find myself at a loss again in the future. My contention is that by
invoking commands with words, most users would be more likely to
remember infrequently used commands for later use.

Yes, there are M-x commands. Yes, I could adopt the practice of always
using them, if it bothers me that much. But three things: (1) many of
them were meant to be invoked by hotkey, and have long, somewhat weird
names, (2) M-x is not so convenient for repeated invocation, and (3) it
wouldn't have jack to do with improving Emacs's interface, which is the
topic.

But I think that in addition to a different command invocation interface
it could be improved by:

1. Dropping the redundant window system.

It is not redundant. I don't want to waste my time aligning and
arranging frames all the time.

Me neither. It's too bad every window manager on Earth requires us to do
that, isn't it?

2. Moving away from text as a window's assumed primary contents. Yes,
Emacs can display images, but (correct me if I'm wrong) they are used
similarly to bold text and must be associated with some text.

You are wrong.

How illuminating. Can I assume my correction is pending?

It would be better if it were the other way around, and text buffers
were built on top of a more flexible buffer type.

Handwaving "it would be better" does not profer any insights.

Well, *I* think it would be better, and I think you guessed that I think
it would be logical and aesthetically pleasing to put the more general
case (a buffer is an abstract thing to be rendered, on top of which a
text buffer, an image buffer, and a whatever buffer could be
implemented) at the bottom of the stack. Is there some particular reason
(besides "Emacs's highest purpose is to display text") that you
disagree?

I was *going* to say that if an Emacs window were a totally blank
canvas, programmers would be free to employ whatever rendering strategy
they found appropriate for their word processor, news reader,
visualization tool, or Photoshop killer, but apparently the secret
nature of the Emacs buffer is not as I imagined. Maybe someday I will
discover the manner of my wrongness.

I do think Emacs has great points.

1. Programmable, to the point of being largely written in its scripting
language.

2. Identical mechanisms for invoking system-defined and user-defined
commands.

3. Lisp.

4. "Document first" interface. No toolbars or other clutter.

It has toolbars, menubars, scrollbars, message area, mode lines. All of
them on by default.

Doesn't everyone turn those off? The message area and mode line are
unfortunate, but at least they are small. Especially compared to the
monstrosities everyone else is churning out.
.

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