Re: Sudden View - Take Two

[even longer and probably even more boring, sorry group]

Sudden Disruption wrote:

> [...]
>
> [Antony Scriven:]
>
> > Unfortunately I cannot see any features that make Sudden
> > View competitive with other editors and word processors.
>
> Not even one single feature? Nothing of value? Even to
> consider? This doesn't strike me as a constructive, open
> or positive attitude. More examples to follow.

I have heard of Sudden View before and I was looking forward
to trying it out. However I am disappointed with it's
usefulness and quality of implementation. I do not find any
compelling features.

> > I couldn't see anything particularly unique.
>
> OK...
>
> Show me ANY other editor which can select four different
> types of blocks using ONLY the mouse (Variant Block
> Selection).

Vim.

> Show me any other editor that can arrange text as quickly
> as Sudden View (Dynamic Arrangement).

Vi.

> Show me another editor that can animate the abstraction
> of virtually any ASCII text file (Instant Abstraction).

All this does to the manual is show the main headings. An
outlining or folding editor does this much more effectively.

> And which other editor allows you to navigate by clicking
> on an image of your file in real time (View Bar)?

The image is too small to be of any use. This is just a
scroll bar. An outlining or folding editor does this much
more effectively. See MSWord's document map for example.

> Or how about showning me another editor that will
> implicitly replicate the format of any line in the file
> as you enter new data (Implicit Formatting)?

Vim. Any word processor.

> Not one of these items strikes you as unique? Or at
> least rare?

No.

> How about useful?

Not in their current implementation.

> Who has an attitude here?

I have the attitude that I think your editor is deficient.

> > The font scaling is a party trick and not a substitute
> > for a good outline editor.
>
> Your "good outline editor" requires that you explicitly
> create the outline

You are creating an outline with indentation. There is
nothing new here.

> and most only give you a single
> outline view.

I've never seen an outlining or folding editor that only
gave you a single outline view.

> Sudden View allows you visually navigate
> (and animate) your content on more than 200 levels

200 levels is pointless. Your manual has two levels. I tried
abstracting some C code and the function names were the
first thing to disappear.

> WITHOUT coding it in any cryptic fashion. This feature
> is especially effective for indented code.

Same with vim, emacs. With Word you hit ctrl-alt-1 for a
level one heading, ctrl-alt-2 for a level two heading, etc.
It's not rocket science.

> > [...]
>
> > Eh? That places a bookmark and then scrolls the screen.
>
> Tony, again, you didn't realize what you were looking at.
> That was no bookmark.

Yes it was. You say so in your next paragraph.

> That was an image of the top item in the Paste Buffer.

Yes I know that. And, by the way, you can only see it if you
run Sudden View full screen.

> As you did a Right Mouse Drag you were seeing each of the
> last 100 items you copied, cut, moved or deleted flash
> before your eyes.

Nope. Right drag scrolls the text. Just to recap, your
instructions were

`Just do a right click anywhere and then a right drag.'

Yup, That sets a bookmark then scrolls the text.

> [...]
>
> > (You should have a stack of bookmarks btw.)
>
> There are four implicit bookmarks for each file open (up
> to 20 using the Recent File function). The four are
> accessed by hitting the "Last Change" button in
> succession and you don't even have to set them.

What I mean is that the order of access is not helpful.

> Beyond that you can create as many explicit unique
> bookmarks as you like and access them with the Find
> Pattern function.

That just searching.

> > That's not undo: it's a history of selected text.
>
> No, it's a history of selected blocks Copied, Cut, Moved
> or Deleted. And it's a very important difference.

That's what I said.

> The classic Undo function forces one to walk backwards up
> a dark hallway. You have to stay in sequence. In
> reality, when people want to Undo something it's almost
> always to recover or replicate deleted data.

No. If I've used lots of crazy mouse movements to rearrange
lots of text and I want it back the way it was then I'm
stuck. I can't reload either because of the autosave. This
is a massive problem.

> Sudden View's rotating Paste Buffer allows you to choose
> which items to paste, and when. For instance, you can
> copy five different blocks from five sequencial pages
> then paste them into a summary in any order you choose -
> all at one time. No bouncing back and forth. Why
> stumble in a dark hallway when you can move things like
> was done in Minority Report?

This is nothing special these days.

> > Where's undo?
>
> OK. Here's an example of Undo that doesn't involve
> recovery of a block. It's the ability to go back to the
> last item found. Yep, Sudden does that too.

That's not undo.

> [...]
>
> When you hit the Down Arrow on most editors, the text
> cursor may also bounce right or left depending on where
> you are on the screen. This is called cursor bondage and
> it's so common most people don't even see it let alone
> challenge it. But Sudden View does - no cursor bondage.
> That's pretty subtle I think. And useful.

It has limited utility with the keyboard. Word processors
often let you click wherever you want to type. E.g. Word,
WordPerfect for ages.

> > Also: how is my work protected in the event of a crash?
>
> In several ways. First of all, Sudden View will AutoSave
> after 60 seconds of inactivity or after only six seconds
> of inactivity when preceded by at least 20 minutes of
> active typing. It keeps you saved. Subtle enough for
> you? Come on, give me some credit here.

This is no good. I accidentally delete my whole file.
SV autosaves. SV crashes. Problem. Even undo wouldn't help
here. (This is why Word users turn off autosave.)

> As for prior versions, the prudent approach is to "Save
> As" and keep versions live, but I DO provide for the less
> prudent. Prior versions are also sent to the Windows
> Recycle Bin on a per session basis so you can recover
> roughly one version per day using Widows "Undo Copy".
> Subtle enough for you? You don't even know it's there
> unless you REALLY need it and go looking.

What's a session? I couldn't make it save a backup. By the
way, if I make some changes then close SV there is no prompt
to save changes. Whoops, that's another bug. Incidentally
you can't close SV with the standard Alt-F4 keypress either.

> [...]
>
> > It is a problem because the manual is very bad.
>
> Still not useful. Give me some specific examples. It's
> only fair. I've given you some.
>
> > I'm speechless! ... use a modifier key instead.

You've snipped text here without indicating as such. Now
what you've quoted doesn't make sense.

> I don't want to send you into shock here, but those two
> examples were only HALF of what Varient Block Selection
> will do. Yep, you can select FOUR different kinds of
> blocks depending on the direction and distance you drag

Stop the hype.... If I want to select a column of width one
then I can only do that by dragging upwards, that's crazy.

> the mouse. Modifier keys? Too F-cking slow.

How so?

> > I want two windows open, side by side. It appears that
> > is impossible.
>
> Nope. Not at all. Under "Windows Menu" select "Tile
> 2x1" then open your files in the two windows.

Yes, it works now. But now the 1x4 and 4x1 buttons do
nothing. I think you have a bug. Try not to sound too crazy
when you say it's my fault.

> > Then if I move to the next window I am presented with a
> > blank screen. If I hit the next window button again
> > then my screen is still entirely blank. WTF?
>
> Yes, you may have to click through all four windows when
> using "Next Window" but it's quick and consistant. The
> number is always the same - 4. It's enough to be useful
> but fast enough to get there quickly. It's the same with
> "Last Change".

The point is that there is no visual feedback of what is
happening. This is probably the most important rule of UI
design.

> [...]
> > BTW if I don't have the main window maximised then I
> > lose the view bar (or whatever you call it).
>
> No. Not true. You just need to resize the window so you
> can SEE the ViewBar.

No, you just need to program it so it stays visible.

> Sudden View allows you to size and position the windows
> anywhere you like so YOU control the visibility of any
> given gadget.

That's not true. I tried changing the size of a text window
by dragging the frame. The frame disappeared and part of all
the visible windows and the bottom half of the view bar
disappeared.

> [...]
>
> > Please rethink your attitude of explaining every
> > problem with Sudden View as a defficiency of the user.
>
> Then please acknowledge when I DO point out the solution
> or provide a cogent example. So far I've seen not ONE
> honest consession. Not ONE!

I have seen no real recognition that there may be problems,
let alone solutions. This is meant to be a beta test, right?
So you want people to find bugs, right?

> [...]
> In conclusion, I honestly hope I've answered some of your
> conplaints.

You've not adequately addressed the problems I've raised.
Here are some more bugs.

- Crashed when I tried to delete all the text in a document.

- `Any file with an extension of .ROM (for Read Only Memory)
will not be saved by Sudden View.' Nope, the manual
(imaginitively titled Text1.ROM) is garbled from my tests.
Looks like it got autosaved. Whoops!

- The subtle autohiding mouse pointer hides itself when
every time I want to open a file via the dialogue box. It
also hides itself at various other times, e.g. when I want
to click on the title bar.

- Opened SV and previous file was not opened and none of the
buttons are labeled. Typing in a windows does nothing.

What you need to consider is whether I might be
representative of other users.

I see no reason to spend any more time with your software.

Antony
.

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