Re: Custom Cable tv

Timothy Daniels wrote>
Regarding the difference between cable installed in a single unit and a multi-unit building, I had a conversation with one of our owners
who is a licensed Real Estate Attorney in the State of California,
specialising in home owner association law. She works in the lien
division of a well-known HOA law firm in Los Angeles. She said
that she knows of no distinction in the law between cabling installed
in the walls of a single family residence and in the common area
(i.e. in the walls) of an MDU building, and she asked rhtorically,
"Why should there be?" Like an attorney, she did not deny what you
stated, but merely that she does not, in her legal training and experience,
know it to be true. Perhaps you have had contact with attorneys
more specialized in utility company law, or perhaps you have been
brain-washed by your company's corporate culture. Either way, the
ownership rights of cabling installed by a cable company and the right
to control its usage past the demarcation point is still cloudy.

I'll give you a slightly different example to help illustrate the difference.

(First off, there are only two kinds of property: Real property, and Personal property. So when I speak of personal property, that doesn't necessarily mean a person owns it. A business could own it. Personal property is simply anything that isn't real property.)

You own your home. You have a cabinet installed. That cabinet when it's sitting in the kitchen waithing to be installed is personal property. When it gets installed, it becomes part of the real property. When you move, you don't get to take the installed cabinet with you because it is now part of the house.

You own a business. You have a cabinet installed. That cabinet when it's sitting in the middle of the store is personal property. When it gets installed, it does not become part of the real property. It is a trade fixture, and remains personal property.

See the difference?

In a single family home, there is no question, the cabinet becomes real property. In a factory, a store, or any other facility that's clearly commercial, the cabinet remains personal property because it's a trade fixture. Multi-unit residential property is a tricky animal, and different states may make draw the line differently. Inside a residential unit is also going to be different than in common areas.

In a single family home, there is no question that in order for the cable company to maintain a proprietary interest in the cable that's installed, they would need a lien. They can't maintain a proprietary interest in the cable once it becomes part of the real property.

In a commercial property, the cable company can keep a proprietary interest in the trade fixtures they install if it's in the installation contract. Even if they don't retain a proprietary interest in the cable, it belongs to the business owner, not the landlord (the owner of the real property). Whoever owns the trade fixture has a right to take it with them, even after a sale of the real property, assuming that they return the real property to pre-installation condition.

If someone occupieing an apartment installes a light fixture, before it is installed, it's the renter's personal property. Once it's installed, it's the landlord's real property, and the renter technically cannot remove and restore without the real property owner giving up title to the property. If a business is renting the property, when they install that light fixture, it remains their personal property, and they can remove and restore without requesting the real property owner give up title because the real property owner never had title to the fixture. But what about installing a fixture in a non-residental portion of an apartment building, or the common area of a condo or co-op?

The question is when does personal property become real property. In the case of a single family residential unit, it's clearly when that personal property is installed. In the case of clearly commercial property, that personal property can remain personal property even after being installed because it's a trade fixture. The issue is where does multi-unit residential property fall in this spectrum. And don't forget, the common areas are different than the individual residential units, too.

I would suggest that you did not present the question correctly to your attorney friend. And I would also suggest that those situations in the middle of the spectrum are exactly why attornies stay in business. Absent of any clearly applicable statutes, it is quite possible for there to be a difference of opinion based just on the Common Law that is the foundation of our legal system. There can also be a difference in opinion as to whether specific statues apply in a given case. So when your attorney asked you "why would there be a difference", that could also be taken as, "which side of the arguement do you want me to take", as people on both sides will easily be able to find attornies who can support either side of the arguement.



I suspect that the normal procedure by a cable company installing
the cable itself in an MDU building is to require a contract that
guarantees it sole usage past the demarcation point since much
of the cabling installed would not immediately be used to support
a subscription and thus not result in immediate cash flow (unless
there were a bulk account covering ALL units). In a single family
residence, in contrast, there is a guarantee of an immediate cash
flow that would pay for the cabling job. That would explain why our
cable company was so surprised to find that they had no contract
with us - if they had installed the cabling themselves, there WOULD
have been a contract, and it is such a contract that would make
legally clear what the cable company's rights are. And that is why
they turned around and offered us a discount on a bulk subscription
in return for an exclusive usage contract - they knew satellite TV
was coming.

Nope. It comes down to the difference between when personal property becomes real property, and how easily they can keep a proprietary interest in the cable itself, versus what the benefit of retaining that proprietary interest in the cable may be.

If there wasn't a difference, as soon as the MDU's contract for service ended, they could simply use the cable left behind for whatever they wanted to use it for, just the same way a homeowner can use the cable installed in their property.

So in one case, the cable is personal property, specifically a trade fixture, while in the other case, the cable becomes a part of the real property. Simple concepts. What's questionable is where is the line drawn. Single-family homes are clearly on one end of the spectrum. MDU's are in the middle, and given that the cable companies routinely claim to retain proprietary rights in the cable they install in MDU's, it's quite clear that there is a difference.

If there isn't a difference, then either homeowners wouldn't be able to convert their inside cabling for their own use, or the contracts that the cable companies have with many MDU's would be unenforceable. But again, you could easily get attorneys who would be willing to argue any side of the issue, and offer compelling support for their position.

Our best bet is to go with what is practiced every day. And that is that the cable companies treat single family homes differently than MDU's regardless of the variations in state laws that could apply. The practice is there is a difference, and that's what it comes down to.


--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.

Maintain your landscape with Black & Decker:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker



.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Notice Of Judgement Lien
    ... the attorneys about making small payments each month so they would stop ... The lien against real property doesn't apply to a mobile home. ... the sheriff can seize any personal property that is attached by the ...
    (misc.legal)
  • Re: real estate / property - can I use it in the plural form?
    ... condominium in a hotel building that was a 99-year leasehold; ... all real property in Hawai'i is leasehold. ... leases weren't originally considered to be real property ... They were personal property. ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: WTF! My credit cards were canceled!
    ... I think it's a way to get to the grocery store and to work. ... >of other personal property which depreciated as soon as they left the ... You didn't say anything about "real property". ... You said an asset. ...
    (alt.marketing.online.ebay)