Re: Surrogate Keys: an Implementation Issue

Brian Selzer wrote:

"Bob Badour" <bbadour@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:X1gxg.15744$pu3.340040@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Brian Selzer wrote:


"Bob Badour" <bbadour@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:XQ5xg.14298$pu3.333248@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Brian Selzer wrote:


"Bernard Peek" <bap@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:xn0ep1e3sn11oo000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


In comp.databases.theory Paul Mansour wrote:


The second is perhaps more profound. Consider a rollback database, or
a database that must provide a complete audit trail of every change.
For example, the database must provide the answer to "who changed
this SS number from X to Y, and when did they change it? As far as I
can tell, if there is no way to answer this without an immutable
identifier. ( I suppose you could design the DB to handle specific
cases, but I'm interested in DBMS with native rollback and audit
trail support.)

If what you think of as the key is mutable it's not a natural key.
Natural keys aren't mutable, at all, ever.

Untrue! Natural keys are often mutable--especially compound keys.


The problem here is that there isn't a usable natural key for
identifying people. So all that's left are surrogates of varying
quality. The SSN is a surrogate that works most of the time. If you
assign someone a payroll number and tell tham that thay won't get paid
unless they can quote it then you have a close to immutable key. But
it's still a surrogate.

I think the original post was part correct. Use a natural key when you
have one. I'd just add to that, don't use a surrogate unless there is a
compelling reason for it. Efficiency is unlikely to be a compelling
argument in most cases.

There is always a compelling reason to use surrogates: natural keys can change. This makes it difficult--if not impossible--to detect changes to rows. For example, Bob is preparing to update a row--that is, he has read the row and is in the process of keying in a change. During that time, another process updated several rows in the same table. Unless the key is immutable, when Bob issues the update, there's no guarantee that the row he's updating is the same one that was read out.

So? Bob issues an update statement to change some attribute identified by a logical identifier. As long as the data Bob is entering is correct, why should he care what happens to any other attributes?

He may be overwriting a change made by another user.

The only relevant concern is whether the update is correct. If the update is correct, it matters not at all that it overwrites something, which is presumably no longer correct.



This problem is magnified


if there are rows related via a foreign key constraint because it's possible for the referenced row to appear unchanged. So you're left with either maintaining an exclusive lock on the row until Bob returns

from the golf outing, or adding additional columns and code in order to

determine with certainty whether or not a change occurred between the time that a row was read and the time of the update.

Or you can just write better applications that don't update anything that didn't change. By introducing some 'under-the-covers' identifying attribute, you create a risk that Bob will change some data identified by a familiar logical identifier and some other process in the meantime will associate that identifier with a different surrogate. Your application will then record the updates against the wrong logical identifier.

You're missing the point. The change Bob's making may change the row, but because several changes occurred to the table while Bob was keying in his change, the row he's about to change may represent some other entity altogether.

Using logical identity and natural keys, that's not possible. The key that Bob specifies identifies the entity. And if Bob updates the entire row, the entire row needs updating. I draw your attention, in particular, to my observation that one can just write better applications that don't update anything that didn't change.

Of course it's possible. The key that Bob specifies identifies the entity at the time of the read from the database. By the time that the write occurs, that same key now refers to a different entity.

Are you stupid or just ignorant? What you state above can only happen if one assumes one is using a hidden surrogate. If one uses explicit values that Bob interacts with, then the value identifies a single entity. That identity does not change.


The logical
identity in the database value that existed at the time of the read is different from the logical identity in the database value that exists at the time of the write even though their atomic values are identical. Logical identity within the value of a database at a specific point in time can be represented by a natural key.

You are a crank. Plonk.

[longwinded idiotic nonsense snipped]


The only time Bob's change could update the wrong entity is if the application Bob is using identifies the 'row' using a surrogate key that Bob cannot see.

I don't think you understand the problem. See above.

I don't think you understand relatively plain english. I won't bother directing you to anything. Since you were incapable to understand it the first time, I have little hope you ever will.


The Relational Model doesn't take into account duration

You have yet to establish that it needs to.

, so the value of a

database at the time of a read is not necessarily the same as that at the time of a write

This only matters if one writes shitty applications with sloppy code. See my earlier posts.

No. The integrity of the database should not depend on the quality of application code.

With all due respect, the dbms can only do so much. If a willful ignorant like yourself is determined enough, he can write shitty sloppy code that forces garbage into the dbms. All he has to do is make updates that were never requested by users exactly as you propose when constructing your straw man.


The database should reject changes that would cause it to
become corrupt, so shitty applications and sloppy code are not relevant to this discussion.

To answer your stupidity, I would first have to teach you what an external predicate is. Since that is extremely basic and since you have failed to learn that before spouting nonsense, you don't deserve any such remedial lesson.

You are a vociferous ignoramus. It suffices to observe that fact.

[remaining nonsense snipped without further effort]
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